Words and bids

[Yannis]

That was something!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6577878224

I can see only a North African nimcha blade in very bad condition. Does anyone here sees something that I miss?

[Tim Simmons]

No! It was once nice but it does have its own decorative look. Tim

[Miyamoto]

Nice one! It I'd bee worth having it for a 10% of that sum...

Is it an early nimcha with early, maybe 17th century ottoman blade? Or much a more recent one in bad condition? I cannot tell, but if it was found in Hungary, I have a theory:

Well, It isn't Hungarian for sure.

Here

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1

is another blade, put for sale recently by Ashoka. Wich is verry similar to the one above. Well, I cannot be certain until I'll hold it in my hands but it looks all about the same style as a Slovenian type of sword, Tolmin town area, from the beginnig of the 18th century (I'll post a photo from a book) The blade is what I would think from 17th century and Ottoman origin (east black sea area, correct me if i'm wrong), from the time od the turkish incursions, then obviusly rehilted by locals and used in the last great villeins rebelion (1713). The villagers kept a lot of old turkish weapons securely in their hideouts, concealed and ready to be used in uprisings.

Well it is only a speculation of a not-so-knoledgeable-but-logical-thinking guy, but that blade could be turkish (north african troops) from the time of turkish incursions in the austrian empire. If that's the case, the sword was not overpriced

[ariel]

Miyamoto:
Totally wrong.
The "Slovenian" blade is not Slovenian at all.
It is a classic Beduin sword from Sinai, Negev, Transjordan. I have four of those and Artzi has one in his Gallery. The blade is a standard local concoction. Old, but definitely not high quality.
The Hungarian stuff... Of course, it is a Nimcha, and I presume with a locally made low quality N. African blade. I admire the way it was cleaned, though: from just rusty junk it was transformed into a Dali-esque multiplanar abstract structure.....
Well, some people are very, very gullible and some other people are using it...

[Justin]

I agree with Ariel the sword you purchased was a Bedouin{spelling?} saber,I think they are from the Siani {again Im sure I spelled that wrong} peninsula.

[ham]

Gentlemen,

To give Miyamoto his due, there was a 16th-17th century Central European form of saber which looks a great deal like the Sinai bedouin type. In both cases, the hilt is no-frills ergonomic with an asymmetrical projection at guard and pommel with exceedingly similar blade type, and neither is generally given to excessive ornamention. It is not unreasonable to confuse the two.
Incidentally, are there no rules of comportment to this forum or is it simply considered appropriate to snap at a colleague, particularly a junior colleague, "totally wrong" particularly when they are not... or am I the only member who would prefer to see a little more courtesy and a bit less statement of hearsay as fact?

Ham

[Rivkin]

Ham,

I'm a little bit surprised - most of the times I publish something at least one of the referees is going to say something really insulting.
I always thought that it's probably the same in history related journals ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Miyamoto]

Am I really totaly wrong?

If Ashoka knew what it was, and he is a great connosieur of asiatic arms I think, he would obviously write it down...

Look carefully to both of the auctions again. Eftis wouldn't lie that it was found in Hungary (wich is the case, that it is verry close to Slovenia) I think. And Ashoka would be certain of its origin if it were rather a recent beduin piece. Ab further there is strong evidence that a similar weapon (again with turkish blade) was used in central Europe 300 years ago...

Now look at the picture from my book.

No, I do not feel offended and Ok, maybe I'm wrong, but at least not totally.

[ham]

I'm a little bit surprised - most of the times I publish something at least one of the referees is going to say something really insulting.
I always thought that it's probably the same in history related journals ?

Sorry to hear that, doesn't sound like a very nurturing academic environment.

Not to muddy the waters further-- the sword in question which appeared on eBay was certainly a Bedouin type. As to the assumed knowledge of sellers out there... caveat emptor.

Ham

[Andrew]

Let's definitely keep it civil, please, gentlemen.

And on topic.


Thank you.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by ham

Incidentally, are there no rules of comportment to this forum or is it simply considered appropriate to snap at a colleague, particularly a junior colleague, "totally wrong" particularly when they are not... or am I the only member who would prefer to see a little more courtesy and a bit less statement of hearsay as fact?

Ham

Of course there are rules. We try not to be heavy-handed about enforcement, and expect members to have a minimum of thick skin, and understand that things written in brief often appear to be brusker than the poster intended. I think everyone here can tell the difference between an insult, and a mere quick retort, so lighten up.

We can't seem to win either way, here. We enforce the rules strictly and we get accused of censorship, we give people some latitute and we get accused of negligence. Try walking a mile in our shoes before being critical of how we run things. You have it pretty damn good here.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Am I really totaly wrong?

If Ashoka knew what it was, and he is a great connosieur of asiatic arms I think, he would obviously write it down...

Look carefully to both of the auctions again. Eftis wouldn't lie that it was found in Hungary (wich is the case, that it is verry close to Slovenia) I think. And Ashoka would be certain of its origin if it were rather a recent beduin piece. Ab further there is strong evidence that a similar weapon (again with turkish blade) was used in central Europe 300 years ago...

I think Eftis said "purchased from a hungarian collector". Does not mean he observed it's being excavated... In general there is a lot of eastern stuff being sold as eastern european - the reason being that the arms of eastern europe are the arms or steppe tribes (well, not to mention that genetically eastern europeans are in between of Khazach and Kyrgyz people).

The same problem comes up here and there with turkish karabela being sold as "polish sword" etc.

Concerning the beduin blade - I also thought the first time I've seen this sword "hey, here is afghani-uzbek shashka"... However the hilt seemed suspicious to me. But I'm a newbie and ariel is the shashka guy.
I don't think in this case someone suffered a financial setback, because I think afghani shashkas command similar prices to beduin pieces, and most of them are basically from the same period - XIX to early XX century ?

Ham: I'm genuinely surprised. Just to give you a sence of "how it can be" - the guy I know was recently hired by a high profile institution. One of the first thing he did - made sure that everyone who disagreed with his scientific theories and does not have a tenure, got fired. Made sure these guys will not a position in good places, too.

[TVV]

To get back to the discussion on hand, are there any differences between the Sinai Peninsula swords and the Slovenian ones? For example, I believe I can see a yelman on the sword from the book Miyamoto has posted, and I guess this is a feature not likely to appear on Bedouin blades? Furthermore, Artzi has stated in his site that the Bedouin blades are likely to exhibit multiple fullers, and I cannot see any fullers on the Slovenian sword, even though the picture quality is not the best. I am by far not an expert on neither the Bedouin, nor the Slovenian swords, but as there is a similarity in the hilt shape, I am just trying to figure out a way to safely distinguish between the two types.
Regards,
Teodor

[Rivkin]

As I said before I'm a newbie, but:
imho "slovenian" sword is in fact a rehilted kilij. As some kilij do, it has "heavy" end (I don't know how to say it - basically around the end the blade gets wider ?) and it has no fullers.

The bedoin sword in my opinion is more similar to heavy shashka blades - slighter, but more uniform curvature, gets thinner towards the end, multi-fullers.

[ariel]

As a matter of fact, one of my Beduins has a European blade with a single wide fuller. It was so polished and repolished that no markings are discernible any longer.
Artzi in his notes on the Beduin in his collection specifically states that they used whatever blades were available, and he saw even Kilij blades in typical Beduin furniture.
The Slovenian provenance is intriguing. However, was there a specific type of Slovenian (South European?) swords with this type of handle or is there only a single or very rare example? If the latter is true, we may be talking about an "accidental traveler" rather than a specific type.

[TVV]

Ariel's last question is great and I will be looking forward to its answer.
Overall, the sword types used in the Balkans in the period from the 16th to the beggining of the 19th century exhibit a huge variety due to the geographical situation and history of the region. Here are some swords in the collection of a friend, which have been found in Bulgaria, and yet in terms of their hilts (and blades) they are not so typical of the Balkans. There are accidental travellers, especially on the Balkans. Any comments on the swords I posted are welcome.

[Andrew]

Hi Teodor. Cool swords.

Quick question: are the bird-head pommels common? Characteristic of any particular culture/region?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Teodor. Cool swords.

Quick question: are the bird-head pommels common? Characteristic of any particular culture/region?

It could be, yet it is the only one I have seen on a sword of this type. I think there was a theory that the karabela pommel is actually a stylized eagle head, and eagles appear on the coats of arms of both Poland and Russia. Honestly, I really do not know what the significance of this pommel could be.

[ariel]

The second and the fourth in Teodore's exhitit are what's called typical Polish-Hungarian swords. The first and the third can be whatever you wish: Persian, Turkish, Polish, Hungarian, Croatian etc.
Turks significantly influenced Hungary and Poles had very close relations with the Persians in their mutual animosity toward the Turks. Complete geopolitical mess but a very fertile ground for the exchange of weapon types.

[Miyamoto]

That sword on picture from the book, is a Kraishnik sword wich was rehilted in Slovenia, by locals, presumably for use in the 1713 uprising. That hilt is verry Slovenian, subalpine region (central europe). I saw a lot hilts like that on daggers, knifes and tools. At the time it was verry common rehilting military (mainly turkish) swords, with a more ergonomical and less appariscent type of hilt and less appariscent scabbard. Such swords were used by smugglers, outlaws, rebelliants, rokovniachs...

The blade exibits two, not verry pronounced fullers on both sides.

Kraishink is a term depicting people of Serb nationality who settled in the infamous Voina Kraina, 500 years ago wit the help of Charles, Archduke of Vienna (the one who established Lipizzaner horses also) for the purpose of defending the austrian teritory against turkish incursions. That probed to be a good solution 'cos Serbs hated turks almost genetically and Austrians formed a strong defensive barrier by settling Serbs there. That Voina Kraina probed to be verry strong also in modern times, as the main reason for the war in the nineties between kraishnik Serbs and autochtone Croats.

The last sword Teodor posted is a hungarian, known as the Krutz sword. It is probalby the from late 17th or early 18th century. That type of sword was used by hugaric warriors allied with the Ottomans. They called themnselfs as crusaders against the Vienna court and attacked Vienna toghether with the Turks in the year 1683. They obviously retreated together with the Turks, and uprised again in the year 1701, under the lead of Ferenc Rakoczy. There are a coupple of verry similar swords in the Sloveninan national museum. I can post a picture if you like.

What exactly is a yelman?

Another question... Am I still the only one seeing the strong sommiliance between the two blades on ebay, eftis and ashoka?