Mystery Dagger

[A. G. Maisey]

The photos are of a dagger that is completely outside my area of knowledge.

It appears to be European, it is very substantial and has good weight in the hand.

It is a product of hand processes, not machine processes.

The hilt is possibly sheep horn.

The pierced work at the ricasso seems not to tarnish, but does not test as gold.

Overall feeling and patina indicates some age.

Overall length is 12.25 inches (310mm.)

Can anybody here help me with an identification and estimate of age?

Thank you.

[katana]

Hi Alan,
the 'gold' like decoration could be 'pinchbeck' an alloy of copper and zinc, used as a cheaper gold substitute. Invented in the 18thC ....its use diminished, in Europe, around mid 19th C. If discovered to be this alloy, it could help date the dagger.

Regards David

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I thought possibly pinchbeck, but I doubt that I can get this tested to confirm, so it was safer to say "not gold".

In fact, this has the feel of something with considerable age, but because it is well and truly outside my area of expertise I really don't want to go making comments that could appear to be stupid to somebody with knowledge in this field.

[Gavin Nugent]

An interesting dagger.

My thoughts lay in a few places of origins from the Algerian regions to Afghanistan regions. I suggest both because of the horn used, the circle motifs to the quillons, the fretwork to the 'gold' panel in the forte and the type of manufacture, by type I mean the look of the weapon.
If I was to pick one over the other, Algeria would have my money. The quillon shape shown, to me shows Moorish influence of old as does the fretwork panel and he block forte it sits in, if I was to guess the age I would say 1890-1920s....

My 2 cents, lets see what others have to say...

Gav

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your opinion Gavin.

Interesting, I would not have considered the areas you mention. I've had a few North African things in the past and this dagger doesn't seem to show similar workmanship, it looks and feels more European to me, but as I've already said, I have very little knowledge in this area, so it could well be North African.

I'll be interested to see if we have any other opinions put forward.

Thanks again.

[Gavin Nugent]

Just my opinon and I too look forward to further imput but I feel if this was European, my guess is that it wouldn't have the circle motifs to the quillons nor the flattened forte with the panel within, I'd expect to see the same form in Europe but the medial ridge would continue to the hilt...just my thoughts.
Gav

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Alan

I believe we've met.

I am going to take a wild, intuitive stab and say this dagger in form reminds me of a Swiss Dagger or Baselard (Schweitzerdegen). Some of them seemed to have had those type of downpointed quillons too.

So it's not too hard for me to see this as European. I agree, I've never seen an African or even an Islamic dagger like this, but then Africa is still largely an unkown to many collectors, including myself.

But I would say it might be European, maybe Swiss, and if so it would be quite old.

That's my best guess.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Gav

I agree the flatened forte with the panel within is a bit strange.

Circle motifs are not uncommon on old German swords. At least, I have one dating to the early 1700s with circle motifs on the quillons and the cup hilt.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

The Swiss Dagger was also known as the Holbein Dagger, designed by someone called Hans Holbein. On the link below, you'll find an interesting sketch of the design on the dagger by Hans Holbein in the 16th century. It even shows the dagger with potential down-pointed quillons, and the curves in the hilt displayed in this one. The basic dagger design was later used for the Nazi SA dagger.

The Swiss Dagger had a diamond section double edged blade, as this one looks to have. So all in all, I'd say it's looking to be a pretty strong contender.



http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhib...ooms/room4.htm

[fearn]

Hi Ron,

So if you're saying that the blade is 400-500 years old, what do you suggest the non-tarnishing metal on the ricasso is?

Pinchbeck was invented in the 18th century, and I'm not sure it's non-corroding in any case. Red gold?

F

[Tim Simmons]

I believe "latten brass" is more tarnish resistant. A very yellow metal. Used for decorative brassware and famous as the copper alloy for medieval church monumental brasses. This would also has been used in Africa and Asia and still used today. I have African brass weapons on disply in the hallway open to all the kitchen steam and so on, been there well over a decade, still clean. I favour a mediterranean origin. Clearly an old piece but I do not think older than a century or two. I know little really though.

P.S. possibly similar to "naval brass" the fact that lead is not used in the alloy help resist corrosion and tarnish.

P.P.S these brasses will tarnish if buried or exposed to extremes but if kept in "normal" conditions and frequently handled they will stay tranish free. Brasses like all the GOLD kofkari and inlay we see. These people are on to it.

http://www.rings-things.com/press/an...ish_brass.html

P.P.P.S --scroll down to brasses for decorative applications.

http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...ight-brass.pdf

[fearn]

Thanks Tim. I needed a good alloy reference, but digging one out hadn't reached the top of my to-do list.

Best,

F

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Fearn

Please highlight the point where I suggested this item was 400/500 years old?

I'd really appreciate that, because I can't remember uttering anything of that nature.

I simply said this dagger's form resembles the Swiss Dagger and suggested that it was a direction worthy of enquiry, and that I thought it was strongly likely that it was of such a design.

I'm reasonable sure this kind of dagger has had more recent examples. Hey, even the Nazis recreated their own version.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

As my knowledge on alloys is pretty unimpressive, I have to ask the obvious question:

Does pyrite tarnish?

Pyrite was certainly in use on firearms from about the 16th century.

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Fearn,

Having said that, my feeling is, it looks old. But not as old as 400/500 years.

It's the quillons that interest me. The quillons suggest that it is European to me. And quite old. But could be as recent as 18th century. Could even be 19th century, though I don't think it's any more recent more than that.

At this point, the limits of my experience have been reached. Is it possible this dagger was subsequently adapted and adopted elsewhere in Europe?

I think if that were the case, it wouldn't have ventured too far from Switzerland, perhaps Austria or Hungary (and this does look like it could be a bit Eastern), or Germany, or maybe even Italy.

All speculative.

[fearn]

Sorry Ron,

It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger.

I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack.

It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard.

F

[Ron Anderson]

I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago.

There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently.

Also a possibility.

I think it's an attractive dagger.

But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested.

Frankly, it could be anything.

[Tim Simmons]

I would not be surprised if this knife from Corsica or other Med Islands especially ones that have had an Islamic influence. There are strong Spanish and Italian styles in the form. I can post pics from "Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson", "Edged Weapons, Fredrick Wilkinson" and "Swords & Bayonets, R.J. Wilkinson-Latham". All 16-17cent pieces and rather fine. This dagger is so similar but more simple with that ethnic look. Could be late 18th cent, very nice too.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been watching this discussion with great interest and must admit that the outstanding observations by all participating truly reflect the fascination in studying these weapons. Even the simplest appearing piece carries certain nuances that test everyones store of knowledge and recognition.
I would note here also that it is virtually impossible for the extremely modest Mr.Maisey to utter anything that could possible be considered less than scholarly observation! ...so the word stupid is not in the realm of anything he says or writes so Alan we will disregard that sentence.

I think what makes ethnographic weapons often such conundrums is the fact that they reflect representations of regional historical tradition as well as the influences of many colonial and trade powers throughout centuries, and thier histories as well. While this weapon seems to reflect strong European style, it is the question whether it is in fact European, and with considerable age, or from colonial or trade regions and carrying those influences.

The grip is of a simple relatively convergent style with a waisted shape that is seen in countless forms on the hilts of edged weapons, and indeed was present on the previously mentioned German SA daggers introduced in 1933.
Much in the same sense, these called atavistically on the traditional 15th-16th century 'Holbein' daggers as the emphasis on early heritage is often used to carry nationalistically charged motivation. It is a powerful device that is reflected in the fashioning of many weapons in more modern times that have classical or historic designs.

The 'crab claw' quillons are indeed descended from European design, in particular many 'left hand' or parrying daggers which often accompanied rapiers in the late 16th-17th century. These scrolled down quillons are in turn derived from earlier Italian and Hispano-Moresque hilts which had become popular in the 15th century, and became essentially considered an Islamic feature from the Sacred Swords in Istanbul which were respectfully remounted when refurbished by the Ottomans.

The presence of the encircled dot is an often appearing symbol which is among the oldest symbols known in temporal motif, being found across parts of Asia, the Indian subcontinent, and is particularly well known in the Balkans and Afghan regions and contiguous regions of Central Asia. It has become extremely prevalent in North Africa, especially from Saharan regions and into Berber regions in the Maghreb, presumably from the same trade contacts which may be the source of many weapon forms. As the simple design is of primarily solar association among other possibilities, it lends well to the key beliefs in folk religions and thought, so is understandable as a pleasantly aesthetic design.

The median ridge, lozenge cross section blade is quite typical of European daggers, structurally well suited for thrusting, and characteristic of many forms used through medieval times on everything from ballocks to basilards.
I believe even the more modern famed Fairburn-Sykes combat knife has a blade of this section. As this particular cross section is not in my thought typical of North African blades, the blade itself may well be European.

Moving to the intriguing gold metal fretwork collar around the blade forte; here is where we really move toward the Maghreb. This type collar or bolster around the based of the hilt/blade root is somewhat characteristic of the well known 'koummya' or Moroccan janbiyya, while the dagger itself seems to be a somewhat smaller version of s'boula, produced in representation of one of the earlier European left hand daggers previously noted.

I think here we see the confluence of European and North African styles, perhaps with this even being a European blade, and refurbished in these regions recalling known classical forms. I would concur with the date assessment of late 19th into early 20th of the assembly, and consider the possibility of the blade earlier European.

All best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank all for sharing their thoughts on this dagger, and especially you, Jim, for your thoughtful analysis and the undeserved compliments.

Interesting indeed. I would not have thought that we could fix something like this in North Africa, but it appears that perhaps that region may be the best bet.

Thanks again.

[Ron Anderson]

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

Alan, as always my pleasure! and small return in kind for your help over these many years .

Ron, actually the nimcha is not entirely non European in that it is actually diffused from early North Italian hilt forms via Arab traders, with the influence becoming prominent in the Maghrebi littoral by probably by the latter 16th century. It was well established there by the 17th, in fact English merchants in trade with Morocco are seen in portraits in England wearing these in at least two portraits. By the 17th and 18th centuries European trade blades had become prevalent in North Africa via various port entries, and materials entered the ancient caravan routes diffusing them as is well established.
Naturally the complexity of all this history, trade networks and perpetual diffusion of weapon forms, influences and components would take far more to detail than could be placed here...even in my 'brief posts .

For me, and I know many others, the allure of ethnographic weapons is very much the complexity and solving the mysteries of these influences, diffusion and development of weapon forms. Learning the nuances of local hilt forms and the styles and markings of various European and other trade blades that help assess periods and origins are all part of being 'weapons detectives'
Your preferences are not 'puritanical' ..just preferences, and we all have different ones. The thing with ethnographic weapons is that it is often difficult to find examples that are not refurbished in thier working lives using other components, which also may be trade products. The presence of European blades became steadily more prevalent in medieval times after the crusades, and the Moroccan sa'if was but one example of the swords that also had European blades from Spain, Germany and Italy, such as the takouba and the kaskara.

Many hold the Moroccan janbiyya (koummya) to have the lunette style pommel derived from the North Italian cinquedea; the Moroccan s'boula with the H shaped grip from the European basilard, with many of these using bayonet blades from the colonial French; the Manding sabres use French cavalry sabre blades by the 19th century. To the east much of the influence is Ottoman and the list goes on.
Basically, the development of weapons is found in the history of trade, warfare, and colonial expansion.

Im glad you're with us, and soon you may discover yourself hooked too! Its addicting.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your comments here. I was unaware of the evolution of the nimcha.

I do have an appreciation of the dynamics of historic processes. These are interesting, of course.

And yes, I can see the fascination of being able to trace these forces in daggers, knives, swords etc. This is intriguing, even to those of us who don't have all that much experience or knowledge to work with.

Regarding this particular dagger, however, I have my doubts.

If this dagger was created in the late 19th century or later, one has to wonder what the intent of that was.

Was it made for tourists? Even in the 1800s, because of its position at the cross roads of various routes, it seems Morocco was a tourist hub.

I know that the Moroccan jambiya became a popular tourist purchase, even in the 19th century.

If that is the case, in my mind it just makes the dagger less an authentic reflection of a particular time and place. But the blade is very nice. All in all, the dagger presents well. It just no longer seems a cohesive artefact.

I must admit, I do not have a great fondness for North African or Islamic weapons. However, in principal, I have no problem with the fact that different cultures cross-fertilise and that influences in design spread from one place to another.

Up to a point.

I think most people here would not be too taken with a dagger that had a Nazi SS blade cobbled onto a Sykes commando knife hilt, fitting into a scabbard originally made for a Danish naval dirk. Rather than presenting an interesting story, it would just seem like a mismatched hodge podge.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread. I suspect that the grip and the brass placard in the ricasso are of recent (WWI onwards) addition. Nice looking dagger, though.

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ron,
Very good points, and I see what you mean about wondering about the 'comprehensively' appointed items often created commercially for tourist souveniers. These in my view are tantamount to the fantasy wares that make those of us seriously interested in weapons history cringe.

It is important to remember that in many cultures, many weapon forms remain key accoutrements and traditional items of costume. In many cases of course they are intended to be fully functional weapons, despite more apparant as status symbols, case in point the janbiyya/khanjhar in many regions of Arabia and the Middle East. Throughout Africa, weapons have been maintained tribally into present times, and in these cultures weapons that often have bizarre shapes have become sought after art pieces.

I suppose that my point is that a reasonably modern made ethnographic weapon is not necessarily a bauble to be hawked to bumbling tourists. In many cases the items are actually worn as an element of dress, as noted, and if a traveller buys it, the individual simply gets another. There are of course souks and bazaars with huge heaps of traditionally fashioned weapons for sale.

The weapons that, as previously noted, might have various recycled or trade components are most likely pieces fashioned 'in the field' for actual use by locals in my opinion. This is because they are essentially custom made using often heirloom components. In the Sahara and the Sudan the broadswords still worn to this day are typically old blades passed down, and often rehilted and mounted as they change hands or become excessively worn.

The notes on the German dagger and Fairburn-Sykes were expressed comparitively however, and not suggesting these components were ever used on modern ethnographic daggers...but knowing the innovation of local armourers, if such were handy, I would not be surprised if they would be used. In that case, I would be inclined to turn away from the item as well.

In Arabia, North Africa, Central Asia and many regions, edged weapons remain integral components of dress and in some cases, actual use in tribal cultures. As such, I have always considered these weapons outstanding examples of the traditions of these cultures still alive and well even into modern times. Even in western culture, the hunting knife is of course well known as of course a prevalent untilitarian item, which of course often reflects traditional styling, such as the famed Bowie form from the early 1830s (or as surmised).

For me I always think it is interesting to find weapons with incongruent components as if the match can be substantiated either forensically or historically, it presents fascinating possibilities. Much of our discussion can often be focused on these kinds of circumstances, and if it were simply a perfect typological match of a weapon from a standard reference, there wouldnt be half the fun

In your posts you clearly are well versed historically and your comments reflect astute observation, so I kind of hope you will 'get the bug' too !
Around here we are sort of the Baker Street group of 'weapons detectives' and it really is great fun as we get 'new cases' ! Everyone here has key specialties, many wide experience, some are artists, some scientific, and with all these perspectives, the dimensions reached in examination are fantastic.

As always a pleasure talking with you, and thanks for the opportunity to expound on this topic!

All the best,
JIm