FAMOUS WEAPONS WITH PROVENANCE

[VANDOO]

IT OCCURED TO ME A POST ON FAMOUS WEAPONS WOULD BE INTERESTING. SOME OF THESE WEAPONS ARE NO DOUBT IN VARIOUS MUSEUMS WITH GOOD PROVENANCE OTHERS MAY STILL BE IN THE FAMILIES.
SOME WEAPONS ONLY EXHIST IN LEGEND SUCH AS EXCALIBER BUT MANY WERE JUST LOST. THE SWORD OF JOAN OF ARK FOR INSTANCE, IS THERE SWORD OR ARMOR THAT IS REPUTED TO HAVE BEEN HERS SOMEWHERE?
ALEXANDER THE GREAT'S WEAPONS, GENGIS KHAN AND MANY OTHERS THRUOUT HISTORY WHAT OF THIER WEAPONS?
AMERICA IS A YOUNG COUNTRY BUT EVEN HERE WE HAVE PROBLEMS IDENTIFYING WEAPONS WITH GOOD PROVENANCE. THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF DAVID BOWIES BOWIE KNIFE AS WELL AS MANY EXAMPLES OF GUNS OWNED BY FAMOUS OUTLAWS AND LAWMEN BUT GOOD PROVENANCE IS OFTEN DIFFICULT TO COME BY.
PERHAPS SOME MEMBERS HAVE DONE RESEARCH IN SOME OF THESE AREAS AND CAN ADD INFORMATION AND PERHAPS PICTURES OF SUCH ITEMS WITH OR WITHOUT PROVENANCE. IT SHOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING TOPIC.

JUST TO GET THE BALL ROLLING HERE IS A PAINTING DONE IN 1485 IT IS AN ARTISTS INTERPRETATION OF THE ONLY ORIGINAL PAINTING DONE OF HER, UNFORTUNATELY THE ORIGINAL DID NOT SURVIVE. THIS WOULD LIKELY BE THE CLOSEST DEPICTION OF HER STILL SURVIVING.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely outstanding topic Barry! Much as every weapon has its stories to tell, there are many weapons which are attributed to famous persons or events, and often the research which supports these claims is fascinating.
However, it is certain to be mentioned that in many cases, the claims are disputed and have typically remained tangled in folkore and revisionist material.
Regarding Joan of Arc, I recall articles and research of years ago where it was thought her armor had been discovered, unsure of her sword but great tales about it which were in articles also or at least theories on it.

Referring to JIM Bowies fabled knife, 'the Iron Mistress', it wherabouts are unknown, but probably lost as a souvenier to a Mexican soldier and now gone. Obviously there are examples claimed to be the actual knife, one with the strongest claim at a museum in Little Rock I believe.
Davy Crockett is historically shown fighting to the end using his trusty flintlock 'Old Betsy" as a club.....it is now believed he actually survived bbut was summarily executed. As for Old Betsey or either of his other trusty flintlocks, they stayed behind and it is unclear what gun he was using at the Alamo.

Moving to gunfighters guns, fascinating myths! The most prevalent was of gunfighters notching thier guns with thier victories, not so. None of the guns that are provenanced to any of these characters show any such embellishments, and actually Bat Masterson probably perpetuated this when he would buy Colts and notch them to hawk to wide eyed thrill seekers.

The Buntline Special, the foot long barrel Colt presented to Wyatt Earp by pulp writer Ned Buntline (with four others to Masterson and other noteworthies) is a western mystery. It is known that he did not regularly carry it, nor did he use it at the OK corral (he used a Smith & Wesson, which was often even more popular than the Colt in many cases). It is believed that he lost it overboard in Alaska off the coast on a ship.

I hope others will join in, I know I have been obsessed with these kinds of researches as long as I can remember, so cant help rambling about them.

All the best,
Jim

[VANDOO]

ANOTHER INTERESTING SWORD WITH MUCH CONFLICTING HISTORY IS THE SWORD OF WILLIAM WALLACE ( BRAVEHEART). WIKIPEDIA HAD SOME INFORMATION BUT THE BEST I FOUND WAS IN ANOTHER FORUM I WAS NOT AWARE OF "NETSWORD". THE SWORD IN QUESTION IS IN THE NATIONAL WALLACE MONUMENT IN STERLING AND IS 5 FOOT 6 INCHES LONG AND WEIGHS 6 POUNDS OR 2.72KG.
THE HISTORY OF THE SWORD EVEN AFTER WALLACE WAS EXECUTED IN 1305 IS A COMPLEX AND INTERESTING ONE ENVOLVING KINGS AND THIEVES WHO STOLE IT TWICE. WALLACE WAS SAID TO HAVE COVERED THE HILT, SCABBARD AND BELT WITH THE SKIN OF ONE OF THE ENGLISH COMMANDERS AT THE BATTLE OF STERLING BRIDGE. IN 1505 KING JAMES 1V OF SCOTLAND HAD THE SWORD REHILTED AND A NEW SCABBARD MADE. LATER A MUSEUM HAD THE 1505 HILT REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH AN OLDER ONE. THE BLADE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE OR REPAIRED IN 3 PIECES AND HAS NO MAKERS MARKS OR FULLER WHICH ADDS TO THE CONFUSION. IT WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN A LARGE MAN TO WIELD IT WELL AND WALLACE WAS SAID TO BE OVER 6 FEET AND UP TO 9 FEET TALL IN LEGEND.
HERE IS A LINK TO THE ARTICLE WITH MANY GOOD PICTURES
http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000080.html

[fernando]

This one exists and is real, but the owner was not the pretended one... still a Portuguese King, although three centuries later (1438-1481).
The sword is now in exhibition at the Oporto Military Museum.

.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Jim and all!

Re notched guns, etc;
The only one I know about,( and need to look up the details again!)
was a plains rifle supposedly belonging at one time to Joe Meek.
It was a full-stocked "Hawken" type, with (If I remember right) a 36" barrel.
The top of the barrel was inscribed in German something to the effect of , "For the protection of German Immigrants" (In German of course.)

On the right side of the trigger -guard there were three marks filed. These could reflect three deer, or whatever, or possibly three hostiles.
I believe that "J Meek" was scratched rather crudely into the stock, but don't remeber where.
This gun was described in Harold Pederson's book, "The Great Guns"


Vandoo,
The Walace sword is almost certainly much later, but it can be well understood that the museum wanted A sword to display!........and it would have to appear somewhat special.....(!)

Fernando,

The sword you show is very high quality.
Thank you for the photo. I had not seen that one before.

Richard.

[karloj]

Hello

I don't know how many revolvers Al owned, but this is one of them.

Al Capone revolver sells for £67,250 at auction

http://newslite.tv/2011/06/24/al-cap...or-6.html#more

Maybe not so famous gun, but certainly a famous ex-owner.

Jussi


.

[David]

This sword in a museum in Dijon is said to have once belonged to Jeanne d'Arc.

[VANDOO]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

THE ABOVE LINK IS WIKIPEDIAS INTERESTING HISTORY OF THE BOWIE KNIFE. JIM BOWIE AND HIS BROTHER REZIN BOWIE BOTH DESIGNED KNIVES AND THEY CHANGED AND IMPROVED THEM OVER THE YEARS. EVIDENTLY THEY COMISSIONED THE KNIVES AND AFTER JIM BECAME FAMOUS AS A KNIFE FIGHTER THERE WAS A DEMAND SO NO DOUBT MONEY WAS MADE AND THAT DROVE THEM TO CONTINUE TO CHANGE AND TRY NEW DESIGNS TO IMPROVE THE KNIFE AND MAKE IT MORE EFFECIENT AS WELL AS MORE ATTRACTIVE TO BUYERS.
THE FIRST BOWIE WAS DESCRIBED AS SIMULAR TO SPANISH LARGE BUTCHER KNIVES SOMETIMES CARRIED ON SHIPS BY SEAMEN AND PIRATES. (NO GAURD, NO CLIPED POINT AND WOOD RIVITED SCALES)
THE SECOND WAS COMISSIONED BY REZIN BOWIE AND THERE IS A COPY OF THIS FORM OF KNIFE AT THE ALAMO.
THE THIRD FORM WAS MADE BY JAMES BLACK AN ARKANSAWS BLADESMITH FROM A CARVED WOODEN DESIGN MADE BY JIM BOWIE IN 1830. IT IS THE FORM THAT MOST PEOPLE THINK OF AND IS REFERRED TO AS A COFFIN HANDLED BOWIE. IT IS POSSIBLE TO CONFIRM KNIVES MADE BY THE MAKERS SUCH AS JAMES BLACK BUT MORE DIFFICULT TO IDENTIFY A KNIFE ACTUALLY CARRIED BY JIM. THERE WERE EVEN SCHOOLS TO TEACH FIGHTING TECKNIQUES USING THE BOWIE DURING THAT TIME.
I DON'T HAVE PICTURES OF THE FIRST FORM BUT HAVE INCLUDED PICTURES OF FROM #TWO AND #THREE. FOR MORE INFORMATION SEE THE WILKIPEDIA LINK ABOVE. TYPE 3 AT TOP, TYPE 2 BOTTOM PICTURE

[PClemente]

Hi,
Some interesting examples!
A famous sword with provenance that always interested me is the rapier of Gustavus Adolphus, the King of Sweden during the Thirty Years War, and brilliant general who died in the Battle of Lutzen in 1632. The gilded, German made sword was found on the battlefield amidst the carnage.
Paul

[David]

Originally Posted by PClemente

Hi,
Some interesting examples!
A famous sword with provenance that always interested me is the rapier of Gustavus Adolphus, the King of Sweden during the Thirty Years War, and brilliant general who died in the Battle of Lutzen in 1632. The gilded, German made sword was found on the battlefield amidst the carnage.
Paul

This was the only image i was able to find of this sword....

[Pukka Bundook]

There Was at one time a sword shown on here, that very likely belonged to the Scottish outlaw Rob Roy McGregor.
The provenance on this sword was very plausable.
Sorry I have no images though...

Richard.

[Royston]

I was at the Wallis and Wallis auction house in Southern England in the early 90's when they sold Bob Ford's gun. It was claimed that this was used to shoot Jessie James. There was a lot of controversy about the ownership and the auction was almost cancelled but it eventually went ahead. The gun was sold for about £100,000.
When the hammer fell a number of collectors and dealers in the room began firing toy "cap" guns into the air much to the amusement of the rest of us.

I have no photos from the day but there are details on the web for anyone interested.

Regards
Roy

[fernando]

Ceremonial two hand sword (montante) attributed to Vasco da Gama, the Portuguese navigator who found the maritime route to the East (India) in 1498.

Length 175 cm. Dated beg. XV century.

(Lisbon Military Museum)


.

[kronckew]

hauswehr attributed to martin luther,
Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden

[fernando]

Sword attributed do Pedro Alvares Cabral.
... a Portuguese nobleman, military commander, navigator and explorer regarded as the discoverer of Brazil in 1500.
Originally sacked from a tomb in the church of da Graça, city of Santarem. After being wandering out there for a while, was first acquired by a well known family, then passed on to two distinct private collections and, in the sixties, ended in Rainer Daehnhardt collection, where is kept in a mahogany+acrylic+glass vitrine, in a manner that it may be observed by all angles without having to be handled.
There are only five of these swords known and referenced, which model is depicted in the São Vicente panels.
(Use full resolution, for better detail)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lagos40_kopie.jpg
Its condition is rather bad but, due to its maximum importance, the owner never attempted and doesn't intend to restore it. The blade is broken in two parts and the tip is missing 4-5 cms. Its present length is 78 cms.

.

[fernando]

Sword of Portuguese King Dom João I (1385-1433).
Images kindly provided for this purpose by Ensign Officer Ana Soares - Lisbon Military Museum.

.

[fernando]

Sword of Portuguese hero Dom Nuno Alvares Pereira 1360-1431.
Military Constable of the Kingdom for Dom João I, he played the major rule that defined Portuguese indepence continuity, in the decisive battle of Aljubarrota in 1385 (among others). The compensations of Dom João for his victories were so vast that he became one of the richest men in Portugal. He was the founder of the House of Braganza, at the time one of the richest in Europe.
Having later decided to devote his life to religion, he rejected all his wealth and retired to the Convent of Carmo in 1423, to be a monk, where he stayed until he died with 71 years.
He was beatified by the Pope Bento XV in 1918 and recently canonized by Pope Bento XVI in 2009.
Having this sword been found among the wreckage of the convent after the 1755 earthquake, the monks decided that it should be held by the hand of Saint Elias image, during the anual Corpus Cristi procession. As it appeared to be too large for the purpose, the monks decided to cut off part of the blade.
Only in 1854 King Dom Pedro IV ordered its transfer to the Royal Archives, where it stayed until 1915, when it was moved to the Military Museum.
With a 7 cms. blade width and a (present) weight of 2400 grams, it is noticeable the number of perforations made to make it lighter for battle.
Images kindly provided fo this purpose by Ensign Officer Ana Soares of the Military Museu.

.

[ariel]

The last picture demonstrates the consequences of putting aesthetics before physics
The tip of the sword is almost falling off at the breaks across the fancy piercing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

The last picture demonstrates the consequences of putting aesthetics before physics
The tip of the sword is almost falling off at the breaks across the fancy piercing.

I would consider the contextual ambience. The issue was gravity, no matter aesthetics. All the monks wanted was to shorten a symbolic 'device' that could cause the saint to fall off the litter ... ignorants