Another I.D. Needed

[Rikkn]

All the same info needed here guys !!!! This one is also in pretty good shape, biggest problem is the obvious crack in the stock, actually held together by the lower tang. The action is huge. This one has some marks visible in one of the pictures, I do not know what they mean. This is a very long weapon. These are not usually what I collect, but I still love the research and history behind them. What can you guys tell me about this ?

[celtan]

Balkan's Snaphaunce..?

Originally Posted by Rikkn

All the same info needed here guys !!!! This one is also in pretty good shape, biggest problem is the obvious crack in the stock, actually held together by the lower tang. The action is huge. This one has some marks visible in one of the pictures, I do not know what they mean. This is a very long weapon. These are not usually what I collect, but I still love the research and history behind them. What can you guys tell me about this ?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by celtan

Balkan's Snaphaunce..?

Look's 100% Moroccan to me.

[Rikkn]

So, is it as old as it looks ????

[kahnjar1]

Yes it's Moroccan and likely 19th/early 20th century. The use of flint/snaphaunce locks lasted much later in North Africa, in fact well into the 20th century in some areas, due to ease of getting hold of powder etc but no easy access to fixed ammunition.
Re the marks on the top of the barrel---if you can post a clear pic of these I will see if I can find them in any of my books.
Regards Stuart

[Rikkn]

Collectible ? I will post better pictures of markings later this morning.

[kahnjar1]

OK I will see what I can find out when you post the pics.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Yes it's Moroccan and likely 19th/early 20th century. The use of flint/snaphaunce locks lasted much later in North Africa, in fact well into the 20th century in some areas, due to ease of getting hold of powder etc but no easy access to fixed ammunition.

Regards Stuart

Stu, the mention of the reason that flintlock use continued in many places well past the introduction of cartridges and even into the 20th century was indeed because of difficulty in obtaining cartridge ammunition.

Even in America's frontier in the 1800's, the use of flintlocks was very much preferred by adventurers and 'mountain men' as they were often in far remote areas where such cartridge ammunition was not available.

As always, writers often have enjoyed sensationalizing tribesmen in more modern times using these anachronistic weapons as signs of thier being 'backward' or in the frontier cases of disparagingly referring to 'hillbillies' and such descriptions..while it was more often a very sensible case of reliability and availability of ammunition.

All best regards,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
A Happy New Year to you. Hope you are in a snowfree part of the country. It would not be much fun confined to the "bookmobile" in a snowstorm!
Yes it would appear that muzzleloaders indeed were still in wide use until very recent times in many countries, due to difficulty of acquiring fixed ammunition. There was a very recent TV program hosted by Britain's Michael Palin, which featured a monkey hunter in either Chad or Mali, who still used a flint muzzleloader to ply his trade!
Regards Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Stu! Thank you for the kind greetings and a happy new year to you too!
We have pretty much grounded the bookmobile for the time being in the southern sector of Texas....it gets to freezing at times but when it rains the temp gets into the 50's to high sixties....temp ranges of 30 degrees + are pretty normal.

I had an experience years ago in Arkansas....way, way out in the middle of nowhere in the Ozarks where there are guys who still shoot with muzzle loaders, and in Tennessee where I lived a while many still use bow and arrow to hunt (actually a wide range of hunters nationwide). With next to little experience with guns, I fired a muzzle loader, and believe it or not hit my target straight on. Pretty effective I would imagine with a really good shot! All the smoke and sparks, take that and multiply by many hundreds and you can imagine what a huge battle like Waterloo must have been like....and how visibility would quickly disappear in the acrid smoke.

All the best,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I had an experience years ago in Arkansas....way, way out in the middle of nowhere in the Ozarks where there are guys who still shoot with muzzle loaders, and in Tennessee where I lived a while many still use bow and arrow to hunt (actually a wide range of hunters nationwide). With next to little experience with guns

That's very interesting Jim!

I believe it was after the Civil War, that the Southern white Americans began using bows to hunt. Firearms weren't readily available for these ex-Confederates, so the poorer ones used bows and slingshots. The bows were based off of British longbows in essence. I think this is where the white American archery tradition comes from. Otherwise, in North America it was the native men who used bows (supplanting atlatls) and sometimes bows became almost fully substituted by guns.


Muzzle-loaders are a field of guns that I find very fascinating...
I might get a Kentucky style .50 cal percussion sometime.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

That's very interesting Jim!

I believe it was after the Civil War, that the Southern white Americans began using bows to hunt. Firearms weren't readily available for these ex-Confederates, so the poorer ones used bows and slingshots. The bows were based off of British longbows in essence. I think this is where the white American archery tradition comes from. Otherwise, in North America it was the native men who used bows (supplanting atlatls) and sometimes bows became almost fully substituted by guns.


Muzzle-loaders are a field of guns that I find very fascinating...
I might get a Kentucky style .50 cal percussion sometime.

Actually I believe that bow hunting was more a matter of preference and outdoorsmanship than necessity, and that a certain fascination with the skills of the American Indian with these weapons became more of a personal challenge. I hadnt heard of American bows being based on English longbows, but dont know much on American archery. I would imagine there are many factions today using wide range of preferences.
By the time the Civil War ended there were staggering numbers of firearms on hand, both North and South and "...incredibly, there was no general disarming of Confederates after the war" ("Arming America", Bellasiles, p.429) and the Union soldiers had all been allowed to take thier firearms home.
There was such a flood of surplus weapons universally that prices plummeted and many producers were nearly bankrupted by the dilemma. Bellasiles notes on p.431 that Congress "..did not interfere with demobilized troops-Union or Confederate-taking thier weapons home. The government had on hand more than 2.5 million muskets now obsolete, which were dumped on the open market, reducing prices for firearms overall.
It was the quest for the technology of firearms that saved the arms industry, and while not all could afford repeating rifles, these surplus guns and wartime weapons were very much present in both North and South.

The atlatl spear thrower is a fascinating weapon, as is the slingshot, both of which seems actually more difficult to use than they probably are.

It would indeed be great to have one of the Kentucky rifles, and firing the one I did was something I'll never forget. I'm really not much of a shooter though, only other time I ever fired one was with Uncle Sam

All best regards,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Stu! Thank you for the kind greetings and a happy new year to you too!
We have pretty much grounded the bookmobile for the time being in the southern sector of Texas....it gets to freezing at times but when it rains the temp gets into the 50's to high sixties....temp ranges of 30 degrees + are pretty normal.

I had an experience years ago in Arkansas....way, way out in the middle of nowhere in the Ozarks where there are guys who still shoot with muzzle loaders, and in Tennessee where I lived a while many still use bow and arrow to hunt (actually a wide range of hunters nationwide). With next to little experience with guns, I fired a muzzle loader, and believe it or not hit my target straight on. Pretty effective I would imagine with a really good shot! All the smoke and sparks, take that and multiply by many hundreds and you can imagine what a huge battle like Waterloo must have been like....and how visibility would quickly disappear in the acrid smoke.

All the best,
Jim

Don't worry about Waterloo. I used to shoot black powder guns at ground game (rabbits etc) and on a still day it was hard enough to see if the first shot actually hit. Great fun though, but in very dry conditions it was possible to set the dry stubble alight with still glowing wadding! Result was dead and cooked meat all at once if things got out of hand!!

[Rick]

Yep, I remember firing a Dixie Gun Works brass frame Navy Colt .

I took a shot at an old fridge across the sand pit; I swear I could see the ball in flight, and what a satisfying WHACK when the round hit .

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! Well said Stu on the frustrations with the powder.
In some of the adventures reading on the Wild West gunfighters and the situations where black powder in up close events i.e. in saloons would actually set clothing on fire. In reading on use of the old muskets, it was said these things were often more dangerous to the guy firing it than the target if the charge was excessive or other variables.

Rick, I remember Dixie Gun Works, and what you describe on those low velocity rounds. It seems so strange to actually be able to see a bullet travelling through the air..like the special effects of todays movies.

All the best,
Jim

[clockwork]

I was in Northern Thailand few months ago and in the villages there they still used black powder guns. I even watched as they made there own black powder which was very intresting.

[bluelake]

Originally Posted by clockwork

I was in Northern Thailand few months ago and in the villages there they still used black powder guns. I even watched as they made there own black powder which was very intresting.

I've made my own bp before and it is an interesting process. It would really be interesting to hear about how the Thais did it and whether or not they continue using pre-20th century methods or if they have an electric ball mill in some shack. Are the ingredients (niter, charcoal, sulfur) found locally or are they ordered from someplace? Is a binder (such as rice rinse water) added to the mix or does the powder have to be remixed before using?

[clockwork]

hey Bluelake they used a pinkinsh in color nitrate that they bought in the local store (way back in the mountians) LOL. They also picked up the Sulfer at the store. he used the charcol from are fire then threw all of it in a Mortar & Pestle and ground to a fine powder then he would test his mixture by taking a small amount and light it and wound add more nitrate intell it burned to his satisfaction. his lead for the shot gun was also primitive they used the water drop system were they pour the lead into water to form the pellets.

[bluelake]

Originally Posted by clockwork

hey Bluelake they used a pinkinsh in color nitrate that they bought in the local store (way back in the mountians) LOL. They also use picked up the Sulfer at the store. he used the charcol from are fire then threw all of it in a Mortar & Pestle and ground to a fine powder then he would test his mixture by taking a small amount and light it and wound add more nitrate intell it burned to his satisfaction. his lead for the shot gun was also primitive they used the water drop system were they pour the lead into water to form the pellets.

Very interesting. It kind of sounds like how I make coffee--I keep testing until I get it the way I like it. Hey, if it works, why not?

[kahnjar1]

An interesting aside from the original post! IF anyone is going to try this recipe be well aware that black powder can explode by PERCUSSION ONLY, and does not necessarily need a spark to ignite it. So be REAL CAREFUL if you are grinding it in any way!
Regards Stuart

[bluelake]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

An interesting aside from the original post! IF anyone is going to try this recipe be well aware that black powder can explode by PERCUSSION ONLY, and does not necessarily need a spark to ignite it. So be REAL CAREFUL if you are grinding it in any way!
Regards Stuart

To keep on topic, I'll just send you a PM.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

An interesting aside from the original post! IF anyone is going to try this recipe be well aware that black powder can explode by PERCUSSION ONLY, and does not necessarily need a spark to ignite it. So be REAL CAREFUL if you are grinding it in any way!
Regards Stuart

I should have actually said "FRICTION" rather than percussion but either CAN cause black powder to ignite.
Stu

[celtan]

Add to that static. Avoid packing the powder in Glad-type bags and storing them together. Avoid loose grains lying around, and specially any electronic equipment nearby, such as cellphones and lamps.

Remember The Maine!

M

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I should have actually said "FRICTION" rather than percussion but either CAN cause black powder to ignite.
Stu