A gobang with VOC blade

Sajen · 2nd June 2016, 09:56 PM

I've won by epray this very interesting gobang, a sword which is already a rare sword from Indonesia, in the meanwhile I am convinced that Maurice is very correct about this point, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi
But this one is more as interesting IMVHO since it has a VOC blade from 1760.

Sadly it is in a very neglected and sad condition but hope that it can be restored proper.
Comments?

ariel · 3rd June 2016, 12:07 AM

This sword was relisted. The original listing had the missing piece of the handle, broken off but present and , AFAIK, the break was clean. Seemed to be a simple thing to reglue.
Have no idea what happened to it eventually, but you might ask the seller.

Sajen · 3rd June 2016, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This sword was relished. The original listing had the missing piece of the handle, broken off but present and , AFAIK, the break was clean. Seemed to be a simple thing to reglue.
Have no idea what happened to it eventually, but you might ask the seller.

Hello Ariel,

great information! Thank you.

Detlef

Rick · 3rd June 2016, 01:19 AM

The dress of this sword (to me) has a sort of Tjikeroeh look to it.
Do we think it is a European blade, or native manufacture?

asomotif · 3rd June 2016, 08:30 PM

Hello Detlef,

Is the blade dated on both sides ?

Best regards,
Willem

Sajen · 3rd June 2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Detlef,

Is the blade dated on both sides ?

Best regards,
Willem

Hello Willem,

seems like this when you look the pictures.

I don't have it in hand until now. You can tell me why you ask? Good sign?

Best regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 3rd June 2016, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The dress of this sword (to me) has a sort of Tjikeroeh look to it.
Do we think it is a European blade, or native manufacture?

Hello Rick,

both swords are from West Java, Sunda, so you see with basement some resemblance. But this are two different region of West Java.

To answer your question, I don't know, I need to look and touch the blade to get an idea. But from the seller pictures I tend to think that it is a local blade (with lamination) maybe worked for a Dutch? But this is just my guess.

Best regards,
Detlef

asomotif · 3rd June 2016, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Willem,

seems like this when you look the pictures.

I don't have it in hand until now. You can tell me why you ask? Good sign?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

I thought that most blades where only marked on one side.
But I am not sure if that is any indication.

I do have my doubts though about the curvature of the blade , the broadness of the fuller and the marking in general.
The strange "7",
the zero is not round or oval in a regular way.

Just my 2 cents. I only handled a handfull of VOC blades.
Maybe you can check with Cornelis Tromp ?

Best regards,
Willem

Sajen · 3rd June 2016, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Maybe you can check with Cornelis Tromp ?

Hello Willem,

thank you for your thoughts about this sword, I know nearly nothing about VOC blades and their markings.

Will contact Cornelis Tromp by pm to bring his attention to this thread.

Best regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2016, 12:30 AM

I cannot say a great deal on the style and period of mounts here, but in my view the blade is probably a reprofiled Solingen saber or hanger item from about mid 18th. As far as I have known the VOC swords were often made in Solingen on some Dutch centers which had German smiths. While the well known VOC examples were typically dated, had the VOC symbol and typically the letter for which of the kamers (chambers) this was allotted to.
There were I think 6, A=Amsterdam; D=Delft etc and the M I think was Middleburg (?).
These letters on this blade are scribed in, IN THE MANNER OF the VOC style of marking, but I would say locally added. The lettering in not in accord with the character of most of these blades, and one side in upside down.

I have understood swords of VOC were not 'issued' but private purchase by the individuals in the employ or otherwise in the service of the company.
These seem to have often been traded or sold into native context, and not really imported to them for use.

Maurice · 4th June 2016, 10:13 AM

Hi Detlef,

A pity the hilt is broken. I hope you will get your hand to the broken part!
The scabbard is typically for a gobang from the Preanger area, Java, just as the hilt (which can be categorised as a "type III" hilt according the gobang article).
Your sword is the "forerunner" and much older as the famous "tjikeroe" swords at the end of the 19th century, early 20th century.

I agree with Jim (Yes Jim, the "M" chamber is from Middelburg), that the blade could be a Solingen blade, which were ordered in large amounts by the VOC at that time, and I have seen several Western blades like this in gobangs from that area and early date. Also several were stamped with the VOC, chamber, date, and makersmarks, on both sides of the blade.

About the stamps there are a lot of assumptions, which we are still working on to find out. They are often stamped in a "typically Western" way (but are they?), or they are engraved like yours on a more Eastern way.

We are in the middle of a study with the eye on marked VOC blades, and we studied some blades from old collections, and we found there the "Western style" stamped and "Eastern style" engraved ones as well. So both were occuring.

Also there are gobangs, which are engraved with names and decorations on the blade, also dated (but with no VOC and chamber), like the R. vd Capellen gobang (page 17 and 18 in the gobang article).

Best wishes,
Maurice

Sajen · 4th June 2016, 11:50 AM

Hello Jim and Maurice,

have hoped that you both chime in. And thank you both for your thoughts about this sword. So it's most probable a in Solingen worked blade for the VOC when I understand you both correct. But I don't understand why it has the mark from Middelburg.

I've contacted the seller and he told me that it was a different sword where the broken piece of the handle was still present. By this sword seems the broken piece not present anymore but hope that it can be restored in a proper way. Like Maurice I think that the hilt has had originally the form of the "type III handle" in Maurices great article and it should be possible to restore this sword handle. We will see.

Best regards,
Detlef

2nd June 2016, 09:56 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	A gobang with VOC blade I've won by epray this very interesting gobang, a sword which is already a rare sword from Indonesia, in the meanwhile I am convinced that Maurice is very correct about this point, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi But this one is more as interesting IMVHO since it has a VOC blade from 1760. Sadly it is in a very neglected and sad condition but hope that it can be restored proper. Comments? Attached Images

3rd June 2016, 12:07 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This sword was relisted. The original listing had the missing piece of the handle, broken off but present and , AFAIK, the break was clean. Seemed to be a simple thing to reglue. Have no idea what happened to it eventually, but you might ask the seller. Last edited by ariel; 3rd June 2016 at 05:14 PM.

3rd June 2016, 01:19 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The dress of this sword (to me) has a sort of Tjikeroeh look to it. Do we think it is a European blade, or native manufacture?

3rd June 2016, 08:30 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Detlef, Is the blade dated on both sides ? Best regards, Willem

4th June 2016, 12:30 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	I cannot say a great deal on the style and period of mounts here, but in my view the blade is probably a reprofiled Solingen saber or hanger item from about mid 18th. As far as I have known the VOC swords were often made in Solingen on some Dutch centers which had German smiths. While the well known VOC examples were typically dated, had the VOC symbol and typically the letter for which of the kamers (chambers) this was allotted to. There were I think 6, A=Amsterdam; D=Delft etc and the M I think was Middleburg (?). These letters on this blade are scribed in, IN THE MANNER OF the VOC style of marking, but I would say locally added. The lettering in not in accord with the character of most of these blades, and one side in upside down. I have understood swords of VOC were not 'issued' but private purchase by the individuals in the employ or otherwise in the service of the company. These seem to have often been traded or sold into native context, and not really imported to them for use.

4th June 2016, 10:13 AM	#11
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Hi Detlef, A pity the hilt is broken. I hope you will get your hand to the broken part! The scabbard is typically for a gobang from the Preanger area, Java, just as the hilt (which can be categorised as a "type III" hilt according the gobang article). Your sword is the "forerunner" and much older as the famous "tjikeroe" swords at the end of the 19th century, early 20th century. I agree with Jim (Yes Jim, the "M" chamber is from Middelburg), that the blade could be a Solingen blade, which were ordered in large amounts by the VOC at that time, and I have seen several Western blades like this in gobangs from that area and early date. Also several were stamped with the VOC, chamber, date, and makersmarks, on both sides of the blade. About the stamps there are a lot of assumptions, which we are still working on to find out. They are often stamped in a "typically Western" way (but are they?), or they are engraved like yours on a more Eastern way. We are in the middle of a study with the eye on marked VOC blades, and we studied some blades from old collections, and we found there the "Western style" stamped and "Eastern style" engraved ones as well. So both were occuring. Also there are gobangs, which are engraved with names and decorations on the blade, also dated (but with no VOC and chamber), like the R. vd Capellen gobang (page 17 and 18 in the gobang article). Best wishes, Maurice

4th June 2016, 11:50 AM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Jim and Maurice, have hoped that you both chime in. And thank you both for your thoughts about this sword. So it's most probable a in Solingen worked blade for the VOC when I understand you both correct. But I don't understand why it has the mark from Middelburg. I've contacted the seller and he told me that it was a different sword where the broken piece of the handle was still present. By this sword seems the broken piece not present anymore but hope that it can be restored in a proper way. Like Maurice I think that the hilt has had originally the form of the "type III handle" in Maurices great article and it should be possible to restore this sword handle. We will see. Best regards, Detlef