A Very Rare Early 16th Century Small Alcove Cannon (Nischengeschütz)

Matchlock · 26th July 2009, 06:52 PM

Wrought iron and oak wood. Overall length 40.6 cm, barrel length 19.8 cm (including bent stick), cal. 25 mm, weight 4 kg.

That (now short) round barrel was originally part of a long wrought iron Nuremberg haquebut with a long iron grip stick made in ca. 1500. It got probably damaged in its early working life and, as a consequence, got shortened and restocked in oak in is present form during the Peasant Wars in 1523-5 (Nischengeschütz, small alcove cannon).

Believe it or not, it is fastened to the wood with three bolts and nuts. Screwing nuts have been around since at least the late 15th century.

I attach some photos taken 20 years ago. I do have a new digital camera now but for some reason or other the USB connection does not seem to fit my computer. As soon as I can make somebody get here and fix this I will post better images.

I also iclude images of a very similar barrel of ca. 1500 which is preserved in its original unaltered shape at the Bavarian Army Museum. These images are owed to Robert Brooker.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 27th July 2009, 10:24 PM

Last barrel is amasing! what is the mass of this? Do you have a hight quality photo?

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 12:06 PM

The measurements are as the text states:

barrel length 83 cm, cal. 23 mm.

These are the only photos I have.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

The measurements are as the text states:

barrel length 83 cm, cal. 23 mm.

These are the only photos I have.

Best,
Michael

Is it 1500 or 1480 year?

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 01:50 PM

It can be dated to ca. 1500 quite exactly as I wrote.

Michael

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

It can be dated to ca. 1500 quite exactly as I wrote.

Michael

why did you dated so? Do you have photos of another wallguns of 1470-80?

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 02:57 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

Please do understand that I cannot repeat all the dating criteria and images that I posted here before; that's why I sent you the link to all my former posts.

It took me about 30 years to learn by close study of the respective objects and their formal criteria, tiny and almost meaningless though they may seem to others. All I can try to do here is give sort of a bottom line, quintessence or take home message citing the most visible and important criteria.

For the Nuremberg haquebut in question these are length, handle, shape of the barrrel, shape and place of the touch hole, and the short and heavily swamped muzzle section.

I know it's not that easy to be a believer sometimes and you are working really hard trying to grasp my points, especially given the fact that English is neither my nor your native language. So I do hope that you can accept what I have been trying to convey.

Best,

Michael

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 04:24 PM

Thanks. I have understood all. It is a pity that this wallgun is later than I thought. So do you have photos of wallguns of the period wich interesting me? Especially with calibres about 21-25 mm and barrel length about 600-800 mm.
Wthat is the date and parametras of this (look at photo)?
Sorry that i have too many questions.

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 04:34 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

Don't worry, there cannot be too many questions, just an old man too slow on the trigger of reply.

I will be glad to tell you everything I can about those three haquebuts but can you get more images and in much higher resolution? In what museum are they? The Army Museum of St. Petersburg?

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 04:39 PM

This fotos from museum of Tabor.Czechia. Sorry, I have no another photos of this

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 06:07 PM

O.k. then, Spiridonov,

Here is what I can tell from looking at your photo.

The one on top: as I wrote in today's prviate message to you the barrel is wrought iron and was almost certainly made in Bohemia. Its multi staging, the small hook immediately below the muzzle, and its general form make a date of ca. 1440-60 highly probable. I do not think that the tiller stock is original.

The central one: barrel octagonal throughout, of wrought iron, sadly without any clear criteria such as staging, a swamped muzzle section and/or sighting, touch hole not visible in image. Most probably made between ca. 1470 and 1500.

The one at the bottom: Barrel possibly of cast copper alloy ('brass' or 'bronze'), and if so, almost certainly cast in a Nuremberg workshop, the long sighted staged muzzle section denoting a manufacturing date of ca. 1520-30. Two things are highly unusual about this form of barrel: the hook has been added by means of a loop, and there is no visibly staged rear section as one would expect. Maybe the barrel was altered during its early working life and restocked. The unusually short butt stock resembles the butts of the well known group of the short Basle harquebuses.

I include photos of similar Bohemian barrels from the Pilsen museum (all b/w copies from an unprinted manusrcript), of two barrels from my collection, ca. 1460-70 and dated 1481, and a huge Nuremberg haquebut of ca. 1515-20 in my collection. This is also done complying with your desire to see barrrels of the second half of the 15th century.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 06:15 PM

The rest.

Spiridonov · 28th July 2009, 09:14 PM

what date of this barrel? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=48227&stc=1
Is the wood original or not? What calibre and length? How did the clutch and back plugis was attached?

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

what date of this barrel? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=48227&stc=1
Is the wood original or not? What calibre and length? How did the clutch and back plugis was attached?

As I stated, ca. 1440-60, formally.

As to the rest of your queries: Dear Spiridonov, please do accept the fact that I am not a clairvoyant - neither do I have access to better images nor am I able to 'see' and explain hidden features.

I may have been the most avid student of earliest guns during the past 30 years (at least I hope so, otherwise my life might have been sorta wasted during that long period!) but I'm not the Pope of firearms, meaning that I am not claiming to be infallible ...

Alright, okay?
Sorry to have to disapoint you, my Russian pal - I understand you seem to be searching for a universal authority to present dead easy answers to your complex queries - but believe me: it ain't me you're lookin' for ...

There sadly ain't no no way to prevent you from going thru a period of long, hard and painfully doubtin' studyin', and all I can offer is to try and guide you along. Learnin' means believin' a damn whole lot though. The only other possible way is doin' it all on your own.

I did.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 29th July 2009, 05:24 AM

I think that it is the axis for the cover. I had ilustraded suppositional technology to fixing os this

Matchlock · 29th July 2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

I think that it is the axis for the cover. I had ilustraded suppositional technology to fixing os this

Sorry, Spiridonov, but: no.

This is not an axis for a missing touch hole cover but a nail to fix the stick stock to the iron socket.

Bet,
Michael

Spiridonov · 29th July 2009, 10:53 AM

I think that (2) is the nail to fix the stick stock to the iron socket, but (1) is too far from stock to be a nail.

Matchlock · 29th July 2009, 11:05 AM

Well, whatever function (1) may have, it is certainly not an axis for a touch hole cover.

Michael

26th July 2009, 06:52 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Very Rare Early 16th Century Small Alcove Cannon (Nischengeschütz) Wrought iron and oak wood. Overall length 40.6 cm, barrel length 19.8 cm (including bent stick), cal. 25 mm, weight 4 kg. That (now short) round barrel was originally part of a long wrought iron Nuremberg haquebut with a long iron grip stick made in ca. 1500. It got probably damaged in its early working life and, as a consequence, got shortened and restocked in oak in is present form during the Peasant Wars in 1523-5 (Nischengeschütz, small alcove cannon). Believe it or not, it is fastened to the wood with three bolts and nuts. Screwing nuts have been around since at least the late 15th century. I attach some photos taken 20 years ago. I do have a new digital camera now but for some reason or other the USB connection does not seem to fit my computer. As soon as I can make somebody get here and fix this I will post better images. I also iclude images of a very similar barrel of ca. 1500 which is preserved in its original unaltered shape at the Bavarian Army Museum. These images are owed to Robert Brooker. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 26th July 2009 at 07:28 PM.

28th July 2009, 04:24 PM	#8
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Thanks. I have understood all. It is a pity that this wallgun is later than I thought. So do you have photos of wallguns of the period wich interesting me? Especially with calibres about 21-25 mm and barrel length about 600-800 mm. Wthat is the date and parametras of this (look at photo)? Sorry that i have too many questions. Attached Images

28th July 2009, 06:07 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	O.k. then, Spiridonov, Here is what I can tell from looking at your photo. The one on top: as I wrote in today's prviate message to you the barrel is wrought iron and was almost certainly made in Bohemia. Its multi staging, the small hook immediately below the muzzle, and its general form make a date of ca. 1440-60 highly probable. I do not think that the tiller stock is original. The central one: barrel octagonal throughout, of wrought iron, sadly without any clear criteria such as staging, a swamped muzzle section and/or sighting, touch hole not visible in image. Most probably made between ca. 1470 and 1500. The one at the bottom: Barrel possibly of cast copper alloy ('brass' or 'bronze'), and if so, almost certainly cast in a Nuremberg workshop, the long sighted staged muzzle section denoting a manufacturing date of ca. 1520-30. Two things are highly unusual about this form of barrel: the hook has been added by means of a loop, and there is no visibly staged rear section as one would expect. Maybe the barrel was altered during its early working life and restocked. The unusually short butt stock resembles the butts of the well known group of the short Basle harquebuses. I include photos of similar Bohemian barrels from the Pilsen museum (all b/w copies from an unprinted manusrcript), of two barrels from my collection, ca. 1460-70 and dated 1481, and a huge Nuremberg haquebut of ca. 1515-20 in my collection. This is also done complying with your desire to see barrrels of the second half of the 15th century. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 29th July 2009 at 10:26 AM.

28th July 2009, 06:15 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

29th July 2009, 05:24 AM	#15
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	I think that it is the axis for the cover. I had ilustraded suppositional technology to fixing os this Attached Images

27th July 2009, 10:24 PM	#2
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Last barrel is amasing! what is the mass of this? Do you have a hight quality photo?

28th July 2009, 12:06 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The measurements are as the text states: barrel length 83 cm, cal. 23 mm. These are the only photos I have. Best, Michael

28th July 2009, 01:50 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	It can be dated to ca. 1500 quite exactly as I wrote. Michael

28th July 2009, 02:57 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, Please do understand that I cannot repeat all the dating criteria and images that I posted here before; that's why I sent you the link to all my former posts. It took me about 30 years to learn by close study of the respective objects and their formal criteria, tiny and almost meaningless though they may seem to others. All I can try to do here is give sort of a bottom line, quintessence or take home message citing the most visible and important criteria. For the Nuremberg haquebut in question these are length, handle, shape of the barrrel, shape and place of the touch hole, and the short and heavily swamped muzzle section. I know it's not that easy to be a believer sometimes and you are working really hard trying to grasp my points, especially given the fact that English is neither my nor your native language. So I do hope that you can accept what I have been trying to convey. Best, Michael

28th July 2009, 04:34 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, Don't worry, there cannot be too many questions, just an old man too slow on the trigger of reply. I will be glad to tell you everything I can about those three haquebuts but can you get more images and in much higher resolution? In what museum are they? The Army Museum of St. Petersburg? Best, Michael

28th July 2009, 04:39 PM	#10
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	This fotos from museum of Tabor.Czechia. Sorry, I have no another photos of this

28th July 2009, 09:14 PM	#13
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	what date of this barrel? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=48227&stc=1 Is the wood original or not? What calibre and length? How did the clutch and back plugis was attached?

29th July 2009, 10:53 AM	#17
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	I think that (2) is the nail to fix the stick stock to the iron socket, but (1) is too far from stock to be a nail.

29th July 2009, 11:05 AM	#18
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well, whatever function (1) may have, it is certainly not an axis for a touch hole cover. Michael