Shabriya

Hombre · 12th May 2020, 06:33 PM

Should be very grateful for opinions about this one....

Best,
Stefan

Kubur · 12th May 2020, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hombre

Should be very grateful for opinions about this one....

Best,
Stefan

Hi
It's a shibriya from 1947 probably from Jordan.

ariel · 13th May 2020, 06:13 AM

The 1947 date etched into the blade, but it is rather funny: Arabic Islamic numerals, but the date is written using Christian calendar:-)
Yes, most likely Jordan.

Hombre · 13th May 2020, 08:37 AM

Thank you so very much for your opinions, guys!
I bow my head for your knowledge!

Anyway, it is not a tourist knife or....

Best,
Stefan

Kubur · 13th May 2020, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hombre

Anyway, it is not a tourist knife or....

Well if you look at our forum, you will see some bedouins in Petra with the same knives...
So it's not a tourist object but probably a colonial souvenir, many British brought back this kind of knife.

Kubur · 13th May 2020, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The 1947 date etched into the blade, but it is rather funny: Arabic Islamic numerals, but the date is written using Christian calendar:-)

This is very common and not unusual in Jordan, Syria, Algeria, Morocco...
It's what they called the progress of colonisation.

Sajen · 13th May 2020, 08:01 PM

Hi Stefan,

Very nice example!

Would like to see pictures when it is polished up a little bit!

Regards,
Detlef

motan · 14th May 2020, 11:43 PM

Hi Stefan,
I agree with all above. Very typical style for Jordan and for the period, so 100% Jordan. As Kubur mentioned, these were produced in relatively large numbers and brought back by British soldiers as souvenirs, but were also used locally. For example, the Arab legion had them as part of their standard attire, though they were not provided by the army.
I attached a few pictures. Sorry for the quality, but I stole them from the web and you can see that. The first is of an Arab Legion soldier in full attire, the second could be from the legion, but also a Palestinian rebel judging by the rifle, which does not look British to me (?) and the black and white headgear. In the third, there are soldiers of the camel corps of the Arab Legion at a social event. You can see different styles of shibriyas, some of which are older and others are contemporary with yours.
As for the dates, Gregorian date in Arabic numerals was the standard practice in the region after WWI. Hijri dates almost always come on daggers from the Ottoman period.

Kubur · 15th May 2020, 12:09 AM

Hi Guys,

Another one that I got recently.
What do you think Motan?
I would say Palestinian 1914-1918...

Hombre · 15th May 2020, 09:47 AM

Thank you so very much guys for your opinions!
I really appreciate it! You are the best!!

/Stefan

motan · 15th May 2020, 03:18 PM

Hi Kubur. Thanks for showing me this piece. I think it is a nice piece (meaning one I would like to have), but then, I am a bit crazy for this type.
After a few years of research, I know a something about classical shibriyas, but I am still trying to find out when and where all these other types from about the same region were made, without much success.
Daggers with shibriya hilt and a dog-leg type blade are known to locals and most people think they are from either Palestine, South Syria (Syrian Desert) or from Jordan. The question is if this type predates the classical shibriya or comes from areas to the north of shibriya country.
Yours could be from Palestine, but also has many features typical of early Jordanian shibriyas, like the use of thick brass sheet, the decorative band over a horn hilt and the triangular pommel with a medallion and ring. The scabbard probably had leather and that is a Syrian feature, but the lower part of the hilt and decoration of the scabbard look Palestinian. In short, I don't know, but I think that your assessment is not far from the truth, though it may very well be from late 19th c.
Artzi thinks that this is a Palestinian type and he is an authority, but I am not 100% sure. I have added a few pics from Artzi's site described as Palestinian and also some from my own pics collection.

Kubur · 15th May 2020, 04:54 PM

Hi Motan,
Now I have your attention so I can post the blade.
A nice combination between the two first daggers that you posted...
Plus more from Oriental arms. Artzi is a leading dealer and expert but I saw many mistakes on his website. Nobody's perfect...

Kubur · 15th May 2020, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hombre

Thank you so very much guys for your opinions!
I really appreciate it! You are the best!!

/Stefan

am I the best or Motan?

Thanks for your kind comments

motan · 15th May 2020, 10:25 PM

Yes, you do have my attention. The perforation does make it probable that your dagger is from Palestine. It is worth noting that in Ottoman times, modern borders between Syria, Lebanon and Jordan did not exist and there was a cultural continuum between areas.
Much is still unknown. For example, the three daggers in the last picture are thought by some to be North Palestinian or Lebanese, while others say they come from the Gaza area - I have seen one with Gaza written on the blade.
Anyway, you have a nice and quite uncommon type. I added few from my own collection with perforated blades that are of somewhat later date.

Kubur · 4th June 2020, 03:15 PM

Another one... not mine... but with the same kind of blade...
with a cowboy shoe pommel

motan · 4th June 2020, 04:55 PM

Hi Kubur,
A nice one. Those with hooked pommel instead of a horse/camel head tend to be of better quality (earlier??). Funny that central ridge. I have one like that. It is not a part of the forging, but there are no signs that it has been soldered on the blade either.

Finally, these daggers are small and primitive and their origin is unknown beyond "likely from somewhere in Palestine". But they have been there for a while and some even have something like a reasonably forge blade.

I see that you are trying to throw us by mixing different discussions (cowboy boot??)

12th May 2020, 06:33 PM	#1
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Shabriya Should be very grateful for opinions about this one.... Best, Stefan Attached Images

14th May 2020, 11:43 PM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Stefan, I agree with all above. Very typical style for Jordan and for the period, so 100% Jordan. As Kubur mentioned, these were produced in relatively large numbers and brought back by British soldiers as souvenirs, but were also used locally. For example, the Arab legion had them as part of their standard attire, though they were not provided by the army. I attached a few pictures. Sorry for the quality, but I stole them from the web and you can see that. The first is of an Arab Legion soldier in full attire, the second could be from the legion, but also a Palestinian rebel judging by the rifle, which does not look British to me (?) and the black and white headgear. In the third, there are soldiers of the camel corps of the Arab Legion at a social event. You can see different styles of shibriyas, some of which are older and others are contemporary with yours. As for the dates, Gregorian date in Arabic numerals was the standard practice in the region after WWI. Hijri dates almost always come on daggers from the Ottoman period. Attached Images

15th May 2020, 12:09 AM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Guys, Another one that I got recently. What do you think Motan? I would say Palestinian 1914-1918... Attached Images

15th May 2020, 03:18 PM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur. Thanks for showing me this piece. I think it is a nice piece (meaning one I would like to have), but then, I am a bit crazy for this type. After a few years of research, I know a something about classical shibriyas, but I am still trying to find out when and where all these other types from about the same region were made, without much success. Daggers with shibriya hilt and a dog-leg type blade are known to locals and most people think they are from either Palestine, South Syria (Syrian Desert) or from Jordan. The question is if this type predates the classical shibriya or comes from areas to the north of shibriya country. Yours could be from Palestine, but also has many features typical of early Jordanian shibriyas, like the use of thick brass sheet, the decorative band over a horn hilt and the triangular pommel with a medallion and ring. The scabbard probably had leather and that is a Syrian feature, but the lower part of the hilt and decoration of the scabbard look Palestinian. In short, I don't know, but I think that your assessment is not far from the truth, though it may very well be from late 19th c. Artzi thinks that this is a Palestinian type and he is an authority, but I am not 100% sure. I have added a few pics from Artzi's site described as Palestinian and also some from my own pics collection. Attached Images

15th May 2020, 04:54 PM	#12
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Motan, Now I have your attention so I can post the blade. A nice combination between the two first daggers that you posted... Plus more from Oriental arms. Artzi is a leading dealer and expert but I saw many mistakes on his website. Nobody's perfect... Attached Images

13th May 2020, 06:13 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The 1947 date etched into the blade, but it is rather funny: Arabic Islamic numerals, but the date is written using Christian calendar:-) Yes, most likely Jordan.

13th May 2020, 08:37 AM	#4
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Thank you so very much for your opinions, guys! I bow my head for your knowledge! Anyway, it is not a tourist knife or.... Best, Stefan

13th May 2020, 08:01 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hi Stefan, Very nice example! Would like to see pictures when it is polished up a little bit! Regards, Detlef

15th May 2020, 09:47 AM	#10
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Thank you so very much guys for your opinions! I really appreciate it! You are the best!! /Stefan

15th May 2020, 10:25 PM	#14
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Yes, you do have my attention. The perforation does make it probable that your dagger is from Palestine. It is worth noting that in Ottoman times, modern borders between Syria, Lebanon and Jordan did not exist and there was a cultural continuum between areas. Much is still unknown. For example, the three daggers in the last picture are thought by some to be North Palestinian or Lebanese, while others say they come from the Gaza area - I have seen one with Gaza written on the blade. Anyway, you have a nice and quite uncommon type. I added few from my own collection with perforated blades that are of somewhat later date. Attached Images

4th June 2020, 03:15 PM	#15
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another one... not mine... but with the same kind of blade... with a cowboy shoe pommel Attached Images

4th June 2020, 04:55 PM	#16
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, A nice one. Those with hooked pommel instead of a horse/camel head tend to be of better quality (earlier??). Funny that central ridge. I have one like that. It is not a part of the forging, but there are no signs that it has been soldered on the blade either. Finally, these daggers are small and primitive and their origin is unknown beyond "likely from somewhere in Palestine". But they have been there for a while and some even have something like a reasonably forge blade. I see that you are trying to throw us by mixing different discussions (cowboy boot??) Attached Images