Blunderbuss with Cork Mail markings

[Kmaddock]

Hi all
Thanks to a pervious post on A York Mail blunderbuss I have saved a good bit of money

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blunderbuss

The attached blunderbuss has just sold at an auction in Ireland
I went to view over the weekend and on comparing the two I was confident this is a recent reproduction as per post above
Things to look out for

Not one screw was rounded anywhere
Font on Cork Mail not square
No wear on the stock chequering
No makers mark on the lock
proof marks did not make sence
and a few other small things

Incidentally the safety did not work and the sear was not engaging with the nice click noise


With a bit of improving on the workmanship it would be hard to distinguish

Note also the Fly or Die on the end of the barrel, which shows recent tooling marks on the inside

I hope this thread is appropriate as I just want to alert others to these items

Best regards

Ken

[rickystl]

Hi Ken.

I happened on your Thread here and was reading same. And I clicked on the Link you provided to read the previous Thread on this blunderbuss. While scolling down reading, I noticed fellow Forum member Chris posted photos of a Spanish miquelet pistol for comment. As soon as I saw the photos of that pistol it immediatly occured to me that I have the SAME pistol, with a darker stock stain. While it generally looks good in the first photos, I'm so glad he decided not to purchase it. It's not even a real gun. The iron parts including the lock, belt clip, and even the barrel are castings (not forgings). The metal butt cap and backstrap are made of thin sheet metal, loosely fitted. This is a Tourist gun. Although the best looking one I've ever seen.
I know my comments here are not on the blunderbuss. But I thought it important that I post here in view of the connection to the previous Link.

Also, I'm glad you were "saved" from a potentially regretable purchase.

Rick

[ChrisPer]

That blunderbuss is well synthesised, unlike the ugly tourist gun. One further weakness is the inletting at lock and tang, which look somewhat worse than any original I have looked at (I am not an expert though). It makes me want to understand who made it and from what. The creation of charming copies for Victorian decorators is well known, and there are known past collectors who have had top-quality copies of rare guns built, ofttimes with no intent to deceive.

This one has to me the feel of a 1950s-60s faker, when top quality craftsmen were less likely to do this stuff and the 'distressed' look was a big part of making new craft furniture 'antique'.

The 'no makers mark on lock' and 'barrel stamp not square' is not at all definitive. We tend to see better-quality retailed pieces or known-quality military standards, but a body like the Cork Mail probably armed their guards from lower-quality trade suppliers, perhaps by tender. The makers would not necessarily pay a quality engraver to mark trade-sourced second tier locks. The Cork Mail stamp is done with old-looking individual letter stamps and reasonably well aligned though not perfect. Letter stamps are more what you would expect in smaller more remote or colonial organisations and consistent with the lower trade quality of the components.

The fly or die is also letter stamps but perhaps newer font, and is the worst feature on this gun I think. The inletting feels like the gun has been made up from two genuinely old but partial guns, and the cock clamp screw and other un-butchered screws are probably new-made.

Overall, I would give it house room if it were not priced too high or for a Cork historic exhibit. Its almost OK, but a fastidious collector or museum might decline to lower the tone of the collection with it.

Just my less-experienced opinion.

[corrado26]

This pistol is a typical Indian made replika of the 1980s. I've added fotos of the same pistol and a foto of another type. Both pistols have exactly the same lock, a fact that is rarely found at original items.
corrado26

[ChrisPer]

Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

[Kmaddock]

I agree in principle
I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made
Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun
A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea
Regards
Ken

[ChrisPer]

Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

[Kmaddock]

Hi Chris
The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion)
But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article.
I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience
My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same.
Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there.
I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for.
Regards
Ken

[Pukka Bundook]

Ken
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and there are all sorts of ways to lose hard earned cash!

Another area to be taken that is not new but shows up quite often, is the case of flint pocket pistols by Nock or Twigg;
These show up not infrequently at auction, nice little pistols, but with Birmingham proofs of the post 1813 type!
Both Twigg and old Henry Nock were dead by then, and should warn us that something is amiss. (!)
All this means is that an arm does not have to be new to deceive us. It has been going on for a Long time and if something is genuinely Old, it does not mean it is genuine as represented.
Both Birmingham and some Belgian shops have been using famous names forever it seems.
The Cork 'buss throws us a bit, as Irish arms need have no proofs at this date. Somewhere I have seen that stamp before & can't think where....but Think it was on another shady piece!

All best,
Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

While this fascinating topic has pretty much run its course with the determination that the Cork example may not be authentic, it does bring up interesting details about these rather esoteric weapons.

The use of Royal Mail coaches with blunderbuss armed guards was proposed about 1784 by John Palmer. Only the guards were permitted to be armed, and often had a brace of pistols as well as these type blunderbusses. According to some sources, a highwayman attempted robbery of one of these coaches and was killed, with no further instances of same recorded, as far as is known.
These blunderbuss guns had become popular among civilians during the English Civil War (1642-48) and though sometimes used by troops, they typically were outside the regular military protocols so usually not stamped with acceptance or other government markings.

By the latter 18th century, these guns and pistols for the prestigious Royal Mail coaches were typically well made and by makers intent on good showing with their products. One of the most commonly known makers were the Mortimers.
On these examples, the typical phrase was
FOR HIS MAJESTIES MAIL COACHES
This was around the end of the barrel and there was usually an asterisk amidst the wording.
These words on both blunderbuss and pistols.

The 'coach' guns continued in use well into 19th c about c 1840s
Found no data on names such as 'Cork' or 'York' mail. Mail routes were usually numbered with three numbers (i.e. 209, one of the only routes 'named' as 'Quicksilver') so does not seem such mkgs on barrel
would be usual.

On some other makers, particularly Ketland & Co. the words:
HAPPY IS HE THAT ESCAPETH ME
The same on one by Joseph Sanders c. 1778-1788
Top of barrel: SANDERSBOROUGH LONDON

Some apparently had R.P. (=Royal Post) near trigger guard

I could not find evidence of any FLY OR DIE phrase nor any reference to it.

Other blunderbuss myths:
* the pilgrims did not have blunderbusses, they were far from well known and they had mostly matchlocks and wheellocks,
* the notion of loading detritus such as nails, glass etc. into the barrel
was not good.....these could jam and explode the gun.

The flared barrel on blunderbusses was not to spread shot etc. but for quick and easier loading , i.e. in bounding coach .

It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns'

It seems like there was an article on these in "Man at Arms" magazine, but cannot recall issue.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns'...

Interesting question, Jim, starting by sorting it by either typology or coloquial terms ... or even by period.

What is precisely a coach gun ?
Does a coach gun have to be the blunderbuss type ?
Do navy blunderbusses have something to distinguish them from those used in coaches ... or those used afoot ... let alone the bronze barrel version ?

How would you classsify the following examples ?

.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent questions Fernando! Thank you.
My use of the term 'coach gun' was inadvertent in this case, as that particular term was not coined until 1858 with the well known Wells Fargo & Co. stagecoaches. While popularly associated with 'riding shotgun' as to the guard with shotgun in the seat next to the driver, these guards were actually referred to as 'shotgun messengers' . An odd term, the message must have been, '...don't even think about it!"

The blunderbuss enigma is complicated by the fact that these odd early 'shotguns' were actually in varying forms closely related, with different terms and characters in degree. The most significant of course was the shorter barrel and flared bell muzzle . The 'musketoon' was a closely related type but I cannot specify exactly what the differences are.

While the blunderbuss originated around second half of 16thc.it did not become widely known until mid century 17th. Its use militarily seems sketchy until military pattern of 1715 was established. Even then, its use seems limited.
The use of these aboard vessels appears more substantiated, and examples often used the 'pintle' swivel strapping them to the deck rails to absorb some of the notable recoil. These so equipped were termed 'boat guns' .

While the use of brass/brnze barrel would presume naval use, that feature seems characteristic of many of these guns, most notably of course, the Royal Coach blunderbusses (and accompanying pistols). There are many examples of naval blunderbusses with iron barrel.

Naval use of blunderbusses appears to have faltered c. 1810, with general military use slightly after.
However, the Royal Coach mail were still ordering and using these through mid 19th c.

I think that classification of most of these guns would be better done by those here with firearms expertise and they would be likely denoted by ignition system (i.e. flintlock, miguelet etc.) and as mentioned, they may fall into musketoon type vs. blunderbuss.

Thank you Fernando for the questions and I hope this might bring more dialogue to this topic. There is clearly a lot to learn and most of what I have added is purely from on call research I did before writing .

[machinist]

Such a beautiful set of guns Fernando, thank you for posting them, they really brighten my day!
They look very stylistically from the peninsula, are there any you think are Portuguese ?

[ChrisPer]

Originally Posted by machinist

Such a beautiful set of guns Fernando, thank you for posting them, they really brighten my day!
They look very stylistically from the peninsula, are there any you think are Portuguese ?

I have to agree, thank you Fernando. Can you tell us more about them?

[fernando]

Thsnk you machinist and thank you Cris.
Let me try and 'localize' them ...

#1. An early dog lock system, potentially made in Portugal around 1700.
#2. A luxury engraved example with a typical Portuguese lock, XVIII century.
#3. A miltary style example with a Miquelete lock, made in Spain, circa 1800.
#4. A rather rustic wound steel barrel specimen, with a salvaged Edge lock (1762), made in Portugal in the XVIII century.
#5. A short blunderbuss, with salvaged lock and barrel (Peninsular War), set up in regional Portugal.
#6. A Spanish trabuco with a percussion Miquelete lock, a Catalan stock and a salvaged John Clive barrel, first half XIX century.
#7. An Îtalian luxury 'Scavezzo', to be carried in coach door pockets, made in Brescia in the XVIII century.
#8. Another luxury blunderbuss, with a strong octogonal barrel, made in Portugal, end XVIII century.

Note; all provenances indicated are not categoric, only based on common sense; always susceptible to be corrected.

In a note to Jim i was trying, maybe without success, to evade the steryotypes without evading the fact that some guns are more suitable or even typical to use in coaches, this not necessarily being an exclusive attribution. Coach guns are, as i see, usually connected with Anglo American terminology, like those of Royal Mail and Wells Fargo, while i was wandering in a wider range, as these mail/passenger transport facilities (diligencias, malapostas, etc) were used all over. Thus my approach to be more on guns for coaches than coach guns, if youn catch my drift .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for the clarification and especially the listed descriptions of these fantastic examples!

As you note, to determine which of these blunderbuss type guns were more adaptable or preferred for use on coaches is a good topic, but hard to place exactly as weapons were often diffused into service in many capacities as required. There do not seem to have been rigid standards or guidelines as to what the character or features of such 'specialized' arms might have had.

With the propensity for brass barrels it is unclear what purpose. Would such barrels better withstand the powerful effect of the blast of these guns? It is noted that walnut was always used as it had less chance of splinter or cracking, again, force of blast? These apparently had significant recoil, which in the case of naval types, the reason for the pinter swivel mount.

It would seem that for coach use (that is in the quasi official type such as with the mail coaches) that they were apparently produced by special order, and makers (Mortimer most predominant) vied for the favor of such orders.
Therefore their guns were highly finished as this was a prestigious business, and guards were highly paid relative to other occupations.

By the end of the coaches having the mail routes and giving way to rails and other delivery means about mid 19th c, these specialized guns of course were pretty much ended.
In America however, the Wild West began its own form of transport aside from the fledgling railways with Wells Fargo and other stage lines. As these carried not only passengers but mail and payrolls, the need for the 'shotgun' guards was clear.
As noted, the 'coach gun' was a double barrel shotgun, made specifically with shorter barrel and usually 12 guage.
In the famed 'Gunfight at the OK Corral' in 1881 in Tombstone, Arizona, Doc Holiday carried one of these 'coach guns' under his duster coat. This was apparently a 12 guage (some say 10 guage Moore &Co.) which Virgil Earp had grabbed from the Wells Fargo office as the group walked toward the site of the fabled event . Both he and Wyatt Earp had worked for Wells Fargo so he had easy access to the gun . With its shorter barrel it was easier to conceal.

Contrary to the British versions of 'coach' guns, most of these were not typically marked although many Wells Fargo guns were so marked. None had the hubris or status oriented phrases as the British ones.

Apparantly in Great Britain, the coach blunderbusses were usually accompanied by a brace of pistols, which also often had the muzzle end engraved with these phrases .

The use of blunderbusses or other weapons against the ever present problem of highwaymen in other countries is not as far as I have known as well documented or described as in Great Britain. It seems of course that any easily carried or concealed weapon would be pressed into service for such purposes, and the variation indeterminable.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Jim,

Re. your questions;
It's not that brass barrels were more able to cope with pressure, just that for coaching and exposed to all weathers, they didn't rust like iron tubes.
With these bores being short and wide, it isn't really a matter of pressure, but they still kicked when loaded with a good few pistol balls!

Walnut (European ) is stable and that is the main asset in stock -making. Strong and tough, but beech is better able to withstand splitting, (but not as nice to look at!)...........Butcher's blocks were beech mostly.
English coaching guns could be single barreled as well, built very lightly and short as you note. I always regret Not buying a Griffin coach -gun. It was about 14 bore with a cut-out stock.
These were often carried together with a boxed brace of pistols when traveling.
If a (single) butterfly sling swivel was fitted, it could mean coach use, or even horseback. These were attached at or near the rear sidenail.
Many old houses had one hanging behind the back door, complete with a note saying it was loaded. :-)
A wonderful and interesting old arm......and a very colourful history!!
I am a bit surprised that only one highwayman was documented as meeting his demise by this means, but maybe news traveled fast, even then!!

Best regards,
Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Richard,
My apologies for the delay in responding. Thank you so much for the great and detailed answers to the questions I placed on these guns and some of the characteristics of the materials used.
As I begin to learn more of the history of these firearms it is been pretty exciting to add huge dimension to my lifelong passion with edged weapons.

As noted, most of what I have written has been somewhat cursory research which gave me enough perspective to at least gain some working knowledge (very limited!). The reference on only one highwayman falling to some form of coaching gun surely cannot be accurate, though it of course sounds like hubris oriented lore describing these.

Much appreciated,

Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Jim,

Besides one highwayman that we are aware of, I suppose you know the case of (I think )Thomas Thynne?...going by memory...where a B-buss was used to do away with an "inconvenient" husband. ?

[fernando]

Surely many characters were taken down with a blunderbuss, including notorious personalities. Blunderbusses were said to have been used to kill King Dom José I, in the night of September 3rd 1758, on his way back from a night visit to his mistress Marchioness Dona Teresa Leonor, wife of the Marchis de Tavora. In an ambush to the King's sege, various shots were fired, the Monarch surving badly wounded.
Also virtual scenes are recorded, 'glorifying' this type of gun, one of them featuring a 19th century famous Brasilian religious rebel leader, backed by his bodyguards, in a attitude to stop the progression of the Republic.

.

[corrado26]

Just for Information: There has been a blunderbuss-gun introduced in the Austrian cuirassier-regiments. 12 men of these regiments used so called "trombones M 1759" with a horizontally very wide muzzle. These guns had brass mountings, whereas the following model of the same characteristics but with iron mountings was introduced in 1781. These guns were loaded with 12 small bullets or hacked lead.
corrado26

[Fernando K]

Norman Dixon "Blunderbusess"

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

... There has been a blunderbuss-gun introduced in the Austrian cuirassier-regiments. 12 men of these regiments used so called "trombones M 1759" with a horizontally very wide muzzle ...

Suggestive example, corrado; thanks for sharing it. If i may say, this one falls into atypical connotation, both because blunderbusses generally have flared muzzles and its nickname trombone doesn't reflect its actual barrel shape ?.
But speaking of muzzles, one may consider the 'duck beak' version (as we call it here), in a French example of the XVIII century, here scanned from the catalogue of the Ducal Palace of Vila Viçosa (Portugal).
From the same armoury, we may also appreciate an English fortress/navy blunderbuss, from the same period, with a rather 'scary' muzzle.
... and another example for a similar purpose, this time Portuguese, from the XVII-XVIII century, with a steel octogonal/tronco-conic barrel with silver decoration, equipped with prominent brass sights, an iron swivel device and a typical Portuguese lock.

.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by fernando

this one falls into atypical connotation, both because blunderbusses generally have flared muzzles and its nickname trombone doesn't reflect its actual barrel shape ?.

No, "trombone" has nothing to do with the barrel shape. It may have been my fault to translate the Austrian name "Kürassiertromblon M 1759" into an English obviously wrong expression - sorry!
corrado26

[fernando]

Oh, i see; Tromblon, the French term for blunderbuss. BTW, the term in portuguese is Bacamarte.

[CutlassCollector]

As Jim has already mentioned blunderbusses were widely used at sea in many sizes. From swivel mounted for the ships rails and small boats to hand held for boarding parties.

A 1797 list of equipment requisitioned for the first three US frigates - United States, Constellation and Constitution with around 40 guns each - included 44 blunderbusses. Approx 1 for every 3 guns but by 1822 the navy allowance was recorded as 1 to every 10 guns.

Similar to coaches the ease and speed of loading on a moving platform or small boat must have been a major advantage. Although it is said that a trained shooter could discharge 3 musket rounds a minute from a standing position, the rate of fire was lessened for kneeling or sitting.

This drawing of a Pyrotechnic Blunderbuss is from 'Boarders Away' and was apparently widely used by the Dutch. The dart was set alight before firing and the chains and barbs were designed to catch in the sails to set them on fire.

CC