shashka=big yatagan???

ausjulius · 21st August 2006, 07:10 AM

i was thinking about this recently,,
what made me thing this was one or two things,, like the shape of the eairly yatagans, compared to the shashka handles ,
if you ask anyone around here what the split in the handle is for on the shashka theyll say for resting yout musket on ofcorse..
but the shashka dosnt realy make a good shooting rest atall,
also many of the splits are far to small, maybe they applied for this use on occasions,

i would like some other opinions on this,, were the yatagans used in the area of the north west caucasus 300 or so years ago,,,? ive seen no great evidence of this.. but when you look at the older yatagans they look almost as a small slightly incurved shashka,,

so woud this make the shashka a big knife,, pretending to be a sword?? sort of like a knife that grew alittle to big....
ive never seen any realy earily shashkas,, they seem to have appeared and then became very popular quickly,,,,,,,
other problem is that the sheathe and handles were always being repaired and changed,, and ther eis many sorts, os it is hard ot find a collection that is very old to compare specific features,,

wolviex · 21st August 2006, 07:29 AM

I'm curious too!
In the book Swords and hilt Weapons, in the article India and Southeast Asia by Frederick Wilckinson, on page 191 you can find yataghan picture with caption: The shorter weapon is a yataghan, common in the Balkans and Caucausus.

I was surprised, never heard about it, and I second ausjulius question.

ausjulius · 21st August 2006, 09:37 AM

yeah , its been bugging me now for some time,,
and in another post recently the topic came up about the origin of the shashka,,
clearly yatagans predate the shashka...
i would have thought that a shashka was a shamshir with the guard removed and the sheath turned around..
.. but when you think of it it looks more like a gaint card or yatagon with a saber blade..

Rivkin · 21st August 2006, 03:42 PM

I think Astvatzaturjan gives an alternative version - split is made to preserve the balance and lighten the hilt. "Split ears" has always been a popular hilt, I think since the bronze age, the exact idea behind it is unknown, but many believe that it supposed to symbolize strength (bones). "Split ears" actually were quite in use well before yataghans on medieval european daggers. Attached is an image of a caucasian dagger of XVth century with "split ears".

Btw, we had a discussion here concerning how shamshirs were worn...it seems that caucasians offenly wore them edge up, just like shashka.

ariel · 21st August 2006, 08:57 PM

The oldest yataghan as we know it, is from the 16th century (not counting those kept in Croatian museums, and I could never find a pic, just a brief, nonchalant mention).
Shashkas, to the best of my knowledge, were in use before that. I do not think shashkas derive from yataghans. Yataghans are peculiar to Turkey, ie vicinity of the Caucasus. No other shere of influence of the Ottoman Empire had a native sword resembling it (with the exception, of course, of the typical Turkish Yataghans manufactured elsewhere), and the Central Asian swords (whence the Turks came in ~ 12th century) also have no similar tradition. My guess that shashka and yataghan either developed in parallel in the Caucasian region (broadly speaking) or the Yataghan borrowed the idea from shashka. Of course, the recurved blade of the Yataghan came from elsewhere: Greek Kopis? Indian swords? Was it invented by the Turks as a mix between the two traditions?

Rivkin is correct: the hilt form is very old and likely started when people began to use bones for the hilts (an ideal material, already with the hole, good diameter etc). And, of course, I also do not believe that the eared shashka was ever intended to be used as a support for the muskets: not many muskets were available in the 15-16th centuries in that area and the slit on Cirkassian shashkas (the original shashkas!) was far too narrow for the barrel.

Rivkin · 22nd August 2006, 12:56 AM

What puzzled me is that this first yataghan if I am not mistaken was made by a person from azerbajani turkish tribe tekkelu, who migrated to Turkey are Osmans captured Tabriz and Azerbaijan. Was he given this form in Turkey or did he bring it from Azerbaijan ? Interestingly, in a very old, but very well researched concerning arms and armour movie "Grigorii Saakadze", Saakadze receives a yataghan from Abbas I as a symbol of Safavid's power. Movies are movies and one can find lots of strange stuff in them, but I did not see any obvious mistakes in this movie, however I have that a lot of weapons were copied from Janashia's museum collection.

It is interesting how the origins of kindjal and yataghan are so obscure.

ariel · 22nd August 2006, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

What puzzled me is that this first yataghan if I am not mistaken was made by a person from azerbajani turkish tribe tekkelu, who migrated to Turkey are Osmans captured Tabriz and Azerbaijan. Was he given this form in Turkey or did he bring it from Azerbaijan ? Interestingly, in a very old, but very well researched concerning arms and armour movie "Grigorii Saakadze", Saakadze receives a yataghan from Abbas I as a symbol of Safavid's power. Movies are movies and one can find lots of strange stuff in them, but I did not see any obvious mistakes in this movie, however I have that a lot of weapons were copied from Janashia's museum collection.

It is interesting how the origins of kindjal and yataghan are so obscure.

Yes, Ahmet Tekelu, from the Kizilbashi federation.
Where can I get a disk or a tape of that movie?
BTW, anybody knows how to get an old Albanian movie "Skanderbeg"?

Rivkin · 22nd August 2006, 04:52 AM

ariel:
First of all I have to apologize before you - I am packing 24 hours a day, so I have to regretfully abstain from taking you on your offer... I am moving to Texas on August 28th and since then will be able to send to anyone who wishes a copy of "Saakadze", or some other disks with dances, songs etc.

Unfortunately the movie is of a super-Stalin type - main heroes (noblemen) constantly walk around with eyes wide open, crying "the princes have betrayed us". A lot of imagination spent to white wash Saakadze; some of his most interesting periods of life are omitted. There is no mentioning about him and some of qizilbashi supposedly offering Azerbaijan to Osmans.

ariel · 22nd August 2006, 01:15 PM

Good luck in Texas! If it is Austin,- you lucked out: very cool place ( well, not temperature-wise...)

21st August 2006, 07:10 AM	#1
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	shashka=big yatagan??? i was thinking about this recently,, what made me thing this was one or two things,, like the shape of the eairly yatagans, compared to the shashka handles , if you ask anyone around here what the split in the handle is for on the shashka theyll say for resting yout musket on ofcorse.. but the shashka dosnt realy make a good shooting rest atall, also many of the splits are far to small, maybe they applied for this use on occasions, i would like some other opinions on this,, were the yatagans used in the area of the north west caucasus 300 or so years ago,,,? ive seen no great evidence of this.. but when you look at the older yatagans they look almost as a small slightly incurved shashka,, so woud this make the shashka a big knife,, pretending to be a sword?? sort of like a knife that grew alittle to big.... ive never seen any realy earily shashkas,, they seem to have appeared and then became very popular quickly,,,,,,, other problem is that the sheathe and handles were always being repaired and changed,, and ther eis many sorts, os it is hard ot find a collection that is very old to compare specific features,,

21st August 2006, 03:42 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think Astvatzaturjan gives an alternative version - split is made to preserve the balance and lighten the hilt. "Split ears" has always been a popular hilt, I think since the bronze age, the exact idea behind it is unknown, but many believe that it supposed to symbolize strength (bones). "Split ears" actually were quite in use well before yataghans on medieval european daggers. Attached is an image of a caucasian dagger of XVth century with "split ears". Btw, we had a discussion here concerning how shamshirs were worn...it seems that caucasians offenly wore them edge up, just like shashka. Attached Images

21st August 2006, 07:29 AM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I'm curious too! In the book Swords and hilt Weapons, in the article India and Southeast Asia by Frederick Wilckinson, on page 191 you can find yataghan picture with caption: The shorter weapon is a yataghan, common in the Balkans and Caucausus. I was surprised, never heard about it, and I second ausjulius question.

21st August 2006, 09:37 AM	#3
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	yeah , its been bugging me now for some time,, and in another post recently the topic came up about the origin of the shashka,, clearly yatagans predate the shashka... i would have thought that a shashka was a shamshir with the guard removed and the sheath turned around.. .. but when you think of it it looks more like a gaint card or yatagon with a saber blade..

21st August 2006, 08:57 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The oldest yataghan as we know it, is from the 16th century (not counting those kept in Croatian museums, and I could never find a pic, just a brief, nonchalant mention). Shashkas, to the best of my knowledge, were in use before that. I do not think shashkas derive from yataghans. Yataghans are peculiar to Turkey, ie vicinity of the Caucasus. No other shere of influence of the Ottoman Empire had a native sword resembling it (with the exception, of course, of the typical Turkish Yataghans manufactured elsewhere), and the Central Asian swords (whence the Turks came in ~ 12th century) also have no similar tradition. My guess that shashka and yataghan either developed in parallel in the Caucasian region (broadly speaking) or the Yataghan borrowed the idea from shashka. Of course, the recurved blade of the Yataghan came from elsewhere: Greek Kopis? Indian swords? Was it invented by the Turks as a mix between the two traditions? Rivkin is correct: the hilt form is very old and likely started when people began to use bones for the hilts (an ideal material, already with the hole, good diameter etc). And, of course, I also do not believe that the eared shashka was ever intended to be used as a support for the muskets: not many muskets were available in the 15-16th centuries in that area and the slit on Cirkassian shashkas (the original shashkas!) was far too narrow for the barrel.

22nd August 2006, 12:56 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	What puzzled me is that this first yataghan if I am not mistaken was made by a person from azerbajani turkish tribe tekkelu, who migrated to Turkey are Osmans captured Tabriz and Azerbaijan. Was he given this form in Turkey or did he bring it from Azerbaijan ? Interestingly, in a very old, but very well researched concerning arms and armour movie "Grigorii Saakadze", Saakadze receives a yataghan from Abbas I as a symbol of Safavid's power. Movies are movies and one can find lots of strange stuff in them, but I did not see any obvious mistakes in this movie, however I have that a lot of weapons were copied from Janashia's museum collection. It is interesting how the origins of kindjal and yataghan are so obscure.

22nd August 2006, 04:52 AM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	ariel: First of all I have to apologize before you - I am packing 24 hours a day, so I have to regretfully abstain from taking you on your offer... I am moving to Texas on August 28th and since then will be able to send to anyone who wishes a copy of "Saakadze", or some other disks with dances, songs etc. Unfortunately the movie is of a super-Stalin type - main heroes (noblemen) constantly walk around with eyes wide open, crying "the princes have betrayed us". A lot of imagination spent to white wash Saakadze; some of his most interesting periods of life are omitted. There is no mentioning about him and some of qizilbashi supposedly offering Azerbaijan to Osmans.

22nd August 2006, 01:15 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good luck in Texas! If it is Austin,- you lucked out: very cool place ( well, not temperature-wise...)