Any ideas as to the origin of this guardless dagger?

katana · 12th January 2007, 11:04 PM

Hi, just 'won' this dagger, looked interesting and was cheap

THIS DAGGER MEASURES 32 CMS. (12 1/2 IN.) IN LENGTH.

THE BLADE MEASURES 22 CMS. (8 3/4 IN) IN LENGTH.

The seller describes the hilt as......

"The handle is made from 4. bands of dark, hard material with copper banding in between and 1. red band. We can't be accurate on the type of material. "

Any ideas or comments gratefully received

Regards David

Mark · 13th January 2007, 05:21 PM

No idea. Do you have it in hand yet? It actually looks like a letter-opener to me, but I hope I'm wrong.

katana · 16th January 2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

No idea. It actually looks like a letter-opener to me, but I hope I'm wrong.

You and Spiral both

Well it arrived, blade is tempered steel, not edged but very sharply pointed...so not a letter opener.....however, the balance point is exactly at the point the handle ends/ 'blade' starts. The feel suggested to me that it may be a 'thrower'...seeing as it was very cheap...I took it into the garden and throw it ....not away

....at a wooden board.

Bearing in mind, I am no 'knife-thrower' out of 10 attempts the 'knife' stuck perfectly 9 times.
Certainly not a well made knife...has some age..possibly WW2 era

......but definately functional.

Andrew · 16th January 2007, 07:04 PM

I think I see the remains of hatching in the bottom picture. Any chance this was made from a file?

How is the blade attached to the handle?

Tim Simmons · 16th January 2007, 07:11 PM

There is an almost identical one but with a guard on offer on a well known internet auction site. The stacked handle brings to mind the Mediterranean. North Africa to Somalia. The stilleto is not unknown there abouts.

katana · 16th January 2007, 07:52 PM

Hi Andrew,

It is very difficult to determine whether the areas that have this pattern of discolouration (which seems to give the cross hatching 'effect') is evidence that this is made from a file.(even when viewed under magnification) The blade 'rings' when tapped and has slight 'flex' which 'springs' back. If a file was used I would imagine that it was annealed and re-tempered with less hardness/brittleness of that of the file.
The blade tapers to a 'shoulder' ...then to a rat tail tang that appears to be peened at the pommel (the metal disc of the pommel has plenty of dings and dents and is impossible to see).
I am assuming that this is some sort of throwing knife..purely because of the balance and ease of use (its certainly been fun

).
This could just as easily be used as a stabbing weapon.....perhaps covertly carried ...despite its length....it could easily be concealed in clothing as it is so slim.

Hi Tim,
when I first saw this I suspected Morocco, for two reasons, as you pointed out the stacked handle is common to the region.....but also I seem to remember a reference to a long thin pointed stilleto (no sharpened edges) and was guardless....which were concealed in the sleeves........

Emanuel · 16th January 2007, 08:19 PM

Hi David,
The transition from flat blade to round tang is interesting. Actually it looks a bit like a chisel blade. But you say it's flexible, so I wonder what it could be. Stiletto is just as well...a nice knife...as for throwing, consider moving target practice

squirrels beware.

Emanuel

katana · 16th January 2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi David,
The transition from flat blade to round tang is interesting. Actually it looks a bit like a chisel blade. But you say it's flexible, so I wonder what it could be. Stiletto is just as well...a nice knife...as for throwing, consider moving target practice

squirrels beware.

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
a chisel could be a good suggestion. When I say flexible the point can be deflected about 1.5" (approx. 3.6cm) up or down...so about 3" of 'movement' overall. Perhaps, like a file, a chisel annealed (softened), and then tempered to a hardness that is less than 'tool' steel ?

Daniel · 16th January 2007, 09:51 PM

The shape reminds me of both a sharpening steel (ground down flat), or a cabinet maker's burnisher (for turning the edge on cabinet scrapers). Is the cross section flat, or oval?
DD

katana · 19th January 2007, 03:29 AM

Hi DD,
oval in section.....you might be on to something

Daniel · 19th January 2007, 04:58 AM

I have a couple of burnishers with oval cross section. They don't have pointed ends, but that would be easy to add--for whatever reason. The handle on your's looks bench made to me. The kind of style you see on WWII theatre made knives. It may be that someone converted a tool into a weapon.
DD

12th January 2007, 11:04 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Any ideas as to the origin of this guardless dagger? Hi, just 'won' this dagger, looked interesting and was cheap THIS DAGGER MEASURES 32 CMS. (12 1/2 IN.) IN LENGTH. THE BLADE MEASURES 22 CMS. (8 3/4 IN) IN LENGTH. The seller describes the hilt as...... "The handle is made from 4. bands of dark, hard material with copper banding in between and 1. red band. We can't be accurate on the type of material. " Any ideas or comments gratefully received Regards David Attached Images

13th January 2007, 05:21 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	No idea. Do you have it in hand yet? It actually looks like a letter-opener to me, but I hope I'm wrong.

16th January 2007, 07:04 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I think I see the remains of hatching in the bottom picture. Any chance this was made from a file? How is the blade attached to the handle?

16th January 2007, 07:11 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	There is an almost identical one but with a guard on offer on a well known internet auction site. The stacked handle brings to mind the Mediterranean. North Africa to Somalia. The stilleto is not unknown there abouts.

16th January 2007, 07:52 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Andrew, It is very difficult to determine whether the areas that have this pattern of discolouration (which seems to give the cross hatching 'effect') is evidence that this is made from a file.(even when viewed under magnification) The blade 'rings' when tapped and has slight 'flex' which 'springs' back. If a file was used I would imagine that it was annealed and re-tempered with less hardness/brittleness of that of the file. The blade tapers to a 'shoulder' ...then to a rat tail tang that appears to be peened at the pommel (the metal disc of the pommel has plenty of dings and dents and is impossible to see). I am assuming that this is some sort of throwing knife..purely because of the balance and ease of use (its certainly been fun ). This could just as easily be used as a stabbing weapon.....perhaps covertly carried ...despite its length....it could easily be concealed in clothing as it is so slim. Hi Tim, when I first saw this I suspected Morocco, for two reasons, as you pointed out the stacked handle is common to the region.....but also I seem to remember a reference to a long thin pointed stilleto (no sharpened edges) and was guardless....which were concealed in the sleeves........

16th January 2007, 08:19 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi David, The transition from flat blade to round tang is interesting. Actually it looks a bit like a chisel blade. But you say it's flexible, so I wonder what it could be. Stiletto is just as well...a nice knife...as for throwing, consider moving target practice squirrels beware. Emanuel

16th January 2007, 09:51 PM	#9
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	The shape reminds me of both a sharpening steel (ground down flat), or a cabinet maker's burnisher (for turning the edge on cabinet scrapers). Is the cross section flat, or oval? DD

19th January 2007, 03:29 AM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi DD, oval in section.....you might be on to something

19th January 2007, 04:58 AM	#11
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	I have a couple of burnishers with oval cross section. They don't have pointed ends, but that would be easy to add--for whatever reason. The handle on your's looks bench made to me. The kind of style you see on WWII theatre made knives. It may be that someone converted a tool into a weapon. DD