Just a small question that had me very curious...

ThePepperSkull · 23rd December 2009, 07:42 AM

I was wondering if you wonderful gentlemen at the Keris Worung Kopi could answer me this question. I've looked for an answer before asking here because it seems like such a minuscule question to ask, especially to start a whole topic for, but It's been keeping me up and I can't for the life of me figure it out!

Basically what I want to know is about blade fittings: Is it considered bad form to have a keris blade made from one region, and then have a handle or sheath for it made in another? For example, if I had a blade that exhibited, say, very Javanese characteristics, would it look ridiculous to the seasoned Keris enthusiast if it had a Balinese hilt?

EDIT: I found the answer here. Apologies for wasting bandwidth!

It [the hilt] is one of the prominent ways of recognizing the origin of a Keris. However, the Ukiran does not always match the Warangka. For instance a Keris owner might want to combine the magnificence of a Madura Ukiran with the elegance a Surakarta ladrang Warangka.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2009, 09:20 AM

This is only a small part of the answer, as this question is not a small nor an insignificant one.

Going back to the time of Majapahit, Javanese blades were traded right across the S.E. Asian region, so there are many very old blades that originated in Jawa, but that were originally dressed with scabbard and hilt from a different area.

This mixture of blade from one area and dress from another has continued through into the early 20th century, and it is not at all uncommon to find a blade that displays, say, Bugis, or perhaps Javanese characteristics dressed in Sumatra or other scabbard and hilt.

In Bali, many of the highly honoured old blades are actually of Javanese origin, and have been dressed in Balinese scabbard and hilt for perhaps several hundred years.

Conversely, in Jawa, Balinese and Madurese mercenaries were hired by local rulers, and some of these mercenaries became elite palace guards. Because they were in a formal situation, they were required to dress their keris in the correct style for the court of the ruler they served. In the Mangkunegaraan palace in Solo you can see keris that belonged to Balinese and Madurese palace guards that have their own unique style of dress, neither 100% Solonese of the Mankunegaraan style, nor Balinese, nor Madurese.

In a court situation it was and is required that keris conform to the correct dress requirements, so a courtier who perhaps may have had an heirloom keris from one area, would be required to have dress of the correct style to conform with the requiremnents of the court he served.

In Jawa it is regarded as somewhat ridiculous to fit a keris in say, Surakarta formal scabbard, with a hilt from Madura, however, collectors, most especially collectors in the western world are very partial to the mixing of superbly elegant Madura ivory hilts with superbly elegant Surakarta or Jogjakarta scabbards:- it looks utterly ridiculous to somebody from Surakarta, or from Madura, but to the western based owner it looks beautiful, and since he does not have to wear it at court, who will argue with him?

As a general rule, dress for a blade maintains strict conformity in those places which are under direct influence of a court, and further we travel from the court, the more deviation from conformity we see, however, even though dress may maintain conformity, the blades in that dress can sometimes vary in respect of their origin.

Henk · 23rd December 2009, 10:28 AM

ThePepperSkull,

I think you started a great topic. With a great answer from Alan.
The trading of Javanese blades troughout the whole Archipello, that made that we find Javanese blades in different dresses according to the area where the blade was bought and blades from other areas dressed in the style of the court where the owner served.

I remember also reading in a book and unfortunately i cann't recall what book it was, probably Dutch, that warriors who damaged the dress of the keris replaced the damaged part at the place where they found a mrangi, a woodcarver. That would explain for instance, the marriage of a maduran blade with a maduran ukiran in a javanese scabbard and other marriages that look ridicoulous.

Comes immediately up in my mind the thought that a warrior when he came home immediately would change the replaced dresspart for the one from the area he originated. The only reason not to do so could be the lack of money to buy a new dresspart for the keris.

But i completely agree with Alan that many of the rehilted keris we see, mainly the javanese with a balinese, maduran or even a sumatran ukiran, preferable ivory, is the result of taste of the western collectors.

Moshah · 23rd December 2009, 11:02 AM

Hi.

Keris trade activities also is one of main reason why the wilah-ukiran-wronko uniformity are not strictly followed and founded, although this is not always the case.

As most old blade pieces do stand the test of time, its hilt and sheath sometimes do not.

However, do blades are always the determinant of the origin?

While I am unsure of whether javanese / buginese / sumatran blades are, patani / southern thailand kerises like tajong and coteng are recognized by its hilts and sheaths. Although they do have their own specific blades, sometimes it can be of different styles anyway.

Rick · 23rd December 2009, 03:51 PM

Another question I might add is :

Did the old Jawa makers manufacture keris in other than Javanese dapurs expressly for export ?

David · 23rd December 2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

However, do blades are always the determinant of the origin?

From what i have seen the origin of a keris is generally determined by it's dress. I think this is because the term "keris" refers not only to the blade itself, but is often meant to refer to the entire ensemble.
Of course this becomes difficult when you have a Javanese keris in a Surakarta wrongko with a Maduran ivory hilt.

Personally i prefer to collect keris that are culturally correct as the understanding of the culture is an important aspect of my collecting. Sometimes that might mean having a mix of dress and blade origins as sometimes these mixes have been historical demanded by the culture as has been mentioned, but i am afraid that most often when we see these mixed keris on the market that they are the "dealers special" aimed at a western market that is looking more for flair and artistry than cultural reality.

ThePepperSkull · 23rd December 2009, 07:21 PM

Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about.

In fact, I have a few follow up questions:

Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance?

Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2009, 05:06 AM

Rick

I don't think so.

Consider. I'm thinking in terms of +500 years ago. Javanese makers produced the product and exported to other countries, possibly even as far as Sri Lanka. Since those original exports, those other countries learnt to make their own keris, and developed their own styles. At the time of early export, there was no local style for Javanese makers to copy.

David

The word "keris" can refer to either the blade alone, more correctly termed wilah, or the entire keris including scabbard and hilt. The form of the dress determines whether we call any particular keris a Jogja keris, or Solo keris, or a Cirebon keris, however, in the case where a keris from a particular area is fitted with a blade from an area other than the one that covers the dress , we would classify the blade when broke down the keris into its separate parts, so we could have a Surakarta ladrangan, pendok blewah, jejeran yudowinatan, wilah Madura sepuh ( or Bugis, or Bali, or whatever).

Pepperskull

Response interpolated:-

Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about.

In fact, I have a few follow up questions:

Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another?

I do not understand the question.

Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance?

Depends upon the situation.
In a western setting, who cares?
In a village setting it probably doesn't matter much.
In a city setting where the city is under the influence of a court, anything other than the court approved style will make the wearer look silly
In a court setting ? Who knows ? Demotion? Write out ten thousand times:- I will not make myself look like a fool? Pick up rubbish in the alun2 after Friday prayers?

Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade?

Who knows?

Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

Must be more specific than "Indonesian" .
The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old".
The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do.

From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

Rick · 24th December 2009, 05:43 PM

A.G.M.
"From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little."

Yeah, I put the old Bondolan hilt back on my Ligan; no uwer .

The wood and blade are eloquent enough on their own .

I might be coming 'round a bit .

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2009, 09:39 PM

I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge.

Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans.

Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos.

Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos.

These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad.

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

David · 24th December 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

I whole-heartedly agree here. I have myself been insistent in placing a uwer on a Bali keris that may or may not have originally had one, but this is, at least in my mind, well within general custom. I must say that i don't really understand the collector who is willing to combine dress in unusual ways to meet their own western sensibilities. For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from.

Naga Sasra · 25th December 2009, 12:31 AM

Well said David !

ThePepperSkull · 25th December 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Must be more specific than "Indonesian" .
The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old".
The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do.

An interesting point you bring up. I appreciate that response, as it makes me want to do even more research into Indonesian/Malay history.

My expertise until recently has been of filipino edged weaponry (more specifically from the visayas and of Luzon), but I have been heading progressively into a more malay direction in my hobby. First by doing research into Moro Weaponry and Mindanao history, then going into a little bruneian and borneo research because of my passion for the Moro Kris. This brought me into the Keris Worung Kopi area of these forums as I attempt to learn more about its predecessor, the Keris.

Not until recently have I discovered how far-reaching this blade style has gone and how much it has influenced culture in areas of southeast asia. I'm hooked on reading and learning about it!

I would rephrase my question, but you and others have more than adequately answered it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge.

Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans.

Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos.

Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos.

These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad.

If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I whole-heartedly agree here. I have myself been insistent in placing a uwer on a Bali keris that may or may not have originally had one, but this is, at least in my mind, well within general custom. I must say that i don't really understand the collector who is willing to combine dress in unusual ways to meet their own western sensibilities. For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from.

Very interesting input! I love picking your brains on this subject. the more answers I get, the more questions I get out of it! You're all a wealth of information that makes me glad I found this forum.

Another follow-up question: What combinations of parts in particular (other than the ones you have already mentioned) tend to make you guys (as more than just collectors, but collector-scholars/research hobbyists) cringe?

The reason I ask is that I recently acquired a keris that was beautiful to my untrained eye, but after some research I thought a bit unusual. The Warangka and Pendok struck me as distinctly Surakarta, whereas the Ukiran looked of Balinese origin. It didn't seem like a mistake that they were put together, however, as both warangka and ukiran are made of black horn, and the Pendok and inlay of the Ukiran are both silver with plant/flower engravings (called okir for such decorations on moro kris, but I am unsure of what term to use for the Keris)

I contacted the seller but have not yet recieved a response. I do know that the blade and the sheath are newer made pieces, however. It just struck me as very odd that a balinese hilt was joined with a Surakarta sheath. There is a bit more patination on the silver inlay of the hilt however, which prompts me to believe that it is older.

David · 25th December 2009, 08:52 AM

Pepperskull, why don't you upload some photos of this keris. It would be much easier to discuss if we could all get a look at it.

ThePepperSkull · 25th December 2009, 08:56 AM

Once I get my camera fixed, I will do so ASAP!

Henk · 25th December 2009, 12:29 PM

I had the same question as David. With a picture we can comment much eassier.
Thank you for starting this thread. You see what a minuscule question to ask can bring.

David Quote:
For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from.

I think David couldn't say it better.

23rd December 2009, 07:42 AM	#1
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Just a small question that had me very curious... I was wondering if you wonderful gentlemen at the Keris Worung Kopi could answer me this question. I've looked for an answer before asking here because it seems like such a minuscule question to ask, especially to start a whole topic for, but It's been keeping me up and I can't for the life of me figure it out! Basically what I want to know is about blade fittings: Is it considered bad form to have a keris blade made from one region, and then have a handle or sheath for it made in another? For example, if I had a blade that exhibited, say, very Javanese characteristics, would it look ridiculous to the seasoned Keris enthusiast if it had a Balinese hilt? EDIT: I found the answer here. Apologies for wasting bandwidth! It [the hilt] is one of the prominent ways of recognizing the origin of a Keris. However, the Ukiran does not always match the Warangka. For instance a Keris owner might want to combine the magnificence of a Madura Ukiran with the elegance a Surakarta ladrang Warangka. Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 23rd December 2009 at 07:52 AM.

23rd December 2009, 09:20 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	This is only a small part of the answer, as this question is not a small nor an insignificant one. Going back to the time of Majapahit, Javanese blades were traded right across the S.E. Asian region, so there are many very old blades that originated in Jawa, but that were originally dressed with scabbard and hilt from a different area. This mixture of blade from one area and dress from another has continued through into the early 20th century, and it is not at all uncommon to find a blade that displays, say, Bugis, or perhaps Javanese characteristics dressed in Sumatra or other scabbard and hilt. In Bali, many of the highly honoured old blades are actually of Javanese origin, and have been dressed in Balinese scabbard and hilt for perhaps several hundred years. Conversely, in Jawa, Balinese and Madurese mercenaries were hired by local rulers, and some of these mercenaries became elite palace guards. Because they were in a formal situation, they were required to dress their keris in the correct style for the court of the ruler they served. In the Mangkunegaraan palace in Solo you can see keris that belonged to Balinese and Madurese palace guards that have their own unique style of dress, neither 100% Solonese of the Mankunegaraan style, nor Balinese, nor Madurese. In a court situation it was and is required that keris conform to the correct dress requirements, so a courtier who perhaps may have had an heirloom keris from one area, would be required to have dress of the correct style to conform with the requiremnents of the court he served. In Jawa it is regarded as somewhat ridiculous to fit a keris in say, Surakarta formal scabbard, with a hilt from Madura, however, collectors, most especially collectors in the western world are very partial to the mixing of superbly elegant Madura ivory hilts with superbly elegant Surakarta or Jogjakarta scabbards:- it looks utterly ridiculous to somebody from Surakarta, or from Madura, but to the western based owner it looks beautiful, and since he does not have to wear it at court, who will argue with him? As a general rule, dress for a blade maintains strict conformity in those places which are under direct influence of a court, and further we travel from the court, the more deviation from conformity we see, however, even though dress may maintain conformity, the blades in that dress can sometimes vary in respect of their origin.

23rd December 2009, 10:28 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	ThePepperSkull, I think you started a great topic. With a great answer from Alan. The trading of Javanese blades troughout the whole Archipello, that made that we find Javanese blades in different dresses according to the area where the blade was bought and blades from other areas dressed in the style of the court where the owner served. I remember also reading in a book and unfortunately i cann't recall what book it was, probably Dutch, that warriors who damaged the dress of the keris replaced the damaged part at the place where they found a mrangi, a woodcarver. That would explain for instance, the marriage of a maduran blade with a maduran ukiran in a javanese scabbard and other marriages that look ridicoulous. Comes immediately up in my mind the thought that a warrior when he came home immediately would change the replaced dresspart for the one from the area he originated. The only reason not to do so could be the lack of money to buy a new dresspart for the keris. But i completely agree with Alan that many of the rehilted keris we see, mainly the javanese with a balinese, maduran or even a sumatran ukiran, preferable ivory, is the result of taste of the western collectors.

23rd December 2009, 11:02 AM	#4
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi. Keris trade activities also is one of main reason why the wilah-ukiran-wronko uniformity are not strictly followed and founded, although this is not always the case. As most old blade pieces do stand the test of time, its hilt and sheath sometimes do not. However, do blades are always the determinant of the origin? While I am unsure of whether javanese / buginese / sumatran blades are, patani / southern thailand kerises like tajong and coteng are recognized by its hilts and sheaths. Although they do have their own specific blades, sometimes it can be of different styles anyway.

23rd December 2009, 03:51 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Another question I might add is : Did the old Jawa makers manufacture keris in other than Javanese dapurs expressly for export ?

23rd December 2009, 07:21 PM	#7
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about. In fact, I have a few follow up questions: Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance? Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices?

24th December 2009, 05:06 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	Rick I don't think so. Consider. I'm thinking in terms of +500 years ago. Javanese makers produced the product and exported to other countries, possibly even as far as Sri Lanka. Since those original exports, those other countries learnt to make their own keris, and developed their own styles. At the time of early export, there was no local style for Javanese makers to copy. David The word "keris" can refer to either the blade alone, more correctly termed wilah, or the entire keris including scabbard and hilt. The form of the dress determines whether we call any particular keris a Jogja keris, or Solo keris, or a Cirebon keris, however, in the case where a keris from a particular area is fitted with a blade from an area other than the one that covers the dress , we would classify the blade when broke down the keris into its separate parts, so we could have a Surakarta ladrangan, pendok blewah, jejeran yudowinatan, wilah Madura sepuh ( or Bugis, or Bali, or whatever). Pepperskull Response interpolated:- Oh, wow! Thanks for the input and answers; I really really appreciate them. You guys have given me a whole lot to think about. In fact, I have a few follow up questions: Are there any cultural implications when mixing ukiran from one area to a blade or a warangka from another? I do not understand the question. Is there a combination that should be avoided due to cultural significance? Depends upon the situation. In a western setting, who cares? In a village setting it probably doesn't matter much. In a city setting where the city is under the influence of a court, anything other than the court approved style will make the wearer look silly In a court setting ? Who knows ? Demotion? Write out ten thousand times:- I will not make myself look like a fool? Pick up rubbish in the alun2 after Friday prayers? Have there been historical instances, other than the necessity for a new fitting for the blade (be it from damage to previous fittings or the requirements of law), of an ukiran/warangka of differing regions to be used on a blade? Who knows? Did the Indonesian Keris owner of old mix parts of his own choosing or is this a recently new, more western concept to mix-and-match for aesthetic choices? Must be more specific than "Indonesian" . The idea of "Indonesian" really only dates from around 1946, so there really was no "Indonesian of old". The answer to this lays in the answers already given:- under court influence you conform; in a village if you think you can hang a bit of bling and get away with it, you do. From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little.

24th December 2009, 05:43 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A.G.M. "From what I can see of it, collectors have always done pretty much whatever they like with dress --- something that tends to annoy me more than just a little." Yeah, I put the old Bondolan hilt back on my Ligan; no uwer . The wood and blade are eloquent enough on their own . I might be coming 'round a bit .

24th December 2009, 09:39 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	I reckon a bit of bling is OK, especially with Bali pieces, but what really gets up my nose is combinations that just totally put your teeth on edge. Intricate Madura ivories with severly sophisticated Surakarta ladrangans. Bugis hilts with Bali wrongkos. Lampung hilts with Madura wrongkos. These combinations are all ones that I have recently seen, and to me, they just look so bad. If we want to do the bling thing, we should stay within the bounds of acceptability.

25th December 2009, 12:31 AM	#12
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Well said David !

25th December 2009, 08:52 AM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Pepperskull, why don't you upload some photos of this keris. It would be much easier to discuss if we could all get a look at it.

25th December 2009, 08:56 AM	#15
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Once I get my camera fixed, I will do so ASAP!

25th December 2009, 12:29 PM	#16
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I had the same question as David. With a picture we can comment much eassier. Thank you for starting this thread. You see what a minuscule question to ask can bring. David Quote: For me, with collecting comes a desire to understand the culture, ways and customs of the places my keris come from. I think David couldn't say it better.