Flyssas

PBishop · 5th February 2007, 07:06 AM

Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa.

I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean.

katana · 5th February 2007, 12:42 PM

A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

Andrew · 5th February 2007, 01:26 PM

That's an interesting idea.

Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2007, 03:28 PM

Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity.
It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples.

The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed.

In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin'

of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c.

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 5th February 2007, 04:35 PM

Hello!
That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation.

As Andrew suggested

check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons.
I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment

Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2007, 01:27 AM

Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!!

Just kidding!
All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 6th February 2007, 01:30 AM

Nah!!! I'm all about Atlantis Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2007, 01:53 AM

Right on Emanuel!
Really though, there is a lot of speculation on the development of the flyssa, and the link to the Ottoman yataghan seems most plausible to me at this point. However, we can only speculate as I do not know of any proto-flyssa examples that might demonstrate local development outside that influence.
I dont think any idea or theory is too outrageous if it can be supported in at least some degree.
As always, lots more research to be done.
All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 6th February 2007, 02:28 AM

Hi Jim!
Here's a question that has started to nag at me...when did the falcatta iberia cease to be popular, or even marginally used? If the yataghan can be said to have evolved from the kopis, couldn't the same evolution happen in other areas that used similar blades? Algeria is only a stone's throw away from Spain after all, and Spaniards did have a presence on the Algerian coast prior to Ottoman arrival...

But as you said, research and more research is needed to support any claim.

Best regards,
Emanuel

FenrisWolf · 6th February 2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!!

Just kidding!
All the best,
Jim

I favor elves, myself. Note the similarity to the fighting knives Legolas carries in the LOTR movies.

PBishop · 6th February 2007, 04:27 PM

Elves? Atlantis? Aliens? You guys have no imagination!...

I put the "real" story here at my homepage -
http://groups.msn.com/TheMadScientis...4&all_topics=0

PBishop · 6th February 2007, 04:33 PM

Oh, here's my last word on flyssas. I found this 39" sword for sale for 19.99 (plus shipping, of course). Regretably, it is only stainless steel, but apart from the upswept tip, I think you'll agree it is a reasonable approximation of a flyssa.

Emanuel · 6th February 2007, 04:39 PM

Indeed Patrick, you put us to shame

I like the story a lot!! But be careful with it or it might end up in some serious publication. It's good to see such an interest in Berber culture though. How did you come to be so attracted to it?

The way I see it, the only way to support the claim that the flyssa developed as an indigenous weapon is to find cold hard archaeological evidence. Literary analysis of Ottoman records would be very helpful, but there would always be the nagging doubt, and text can be interpreted a myriad ways. At some point it'd be nice to have the mistery resolved, but I still like it the way it is now...it brings forth a lot of enjoyable stories and suppositions.

Best regards,
Emanuel

I think the piece you posted is a variant of the Maciejowski warbrand: http://www.swordsandcues.com/product...e_cat_544.html A sort of mediaeval chopper derived from pole-arms.
Check out some of the Indonesian and Filipino weapons, a few are remarkably similar to the flyssa.

Emanuel · 6th February 2007, 05:41 PM

Actually one might make a case for this chopper :http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ht=Maciejowski to be a sort of precursor of the flyssa as well. Similar blade, albeit with a two-handed hilt.
Again, mere suppositions without evidence...

PBishop · 7th February 2007, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

It's good to see such an interest in Berber culture though. How did you come to be so attracted to it?

Hi Manolo,

Berber culture attracts me very strongly indeed. I'm a devout multiculturalist for one (I even recently started a multicultural club here in New Jersey), so diverse cultures interest me in a general way.

More specifically, I'm very interested in Berbers, the Ainu, Basques, and Lapplanders for the reason that these groups just might be the aboriginal inhabitants of their territories. Linguistically as well as genetically, they are quite distinct from any of the surrounding people.

But what REALLY sold me on the Berbers per se was a movie called "The Wind and The Lion," in which Sean Connery plays a kind of sherif. Very very cool movie.

I'm a huge fan of Berbers wherever they live, and one of my goals is to do some trekking in the Atlas mountains. There's a remote place in S. Morocco called Tizguiedel that I want to explore. I had a student a few years ago who was a Berber, and my barber when I lived in NYC was a Berber as well - Aziz, the Berber barber... Both were very high quality people.

I think you're probably right about that chopper, it does lack some of the curviness of the flyssa, and I'm glad you liked my story. If it DOES end up in some serious publication, remember where you saw it first...maybe I should get it copyrighted!

Cheers,
Patrick

FenrisWolf · 7th February 2007, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

Hi Manolo,

Berber culture attracts me very strongly indeed. I'm a devout multiculturalist for one (I even recently started a multicultural club here in New Jersey), so diverse cultures interest me in a general way.

More specifically, I'm very interested in Berbers, the Ainu, Basques, and Lapplanders for the reason that these groups just might be the aboriginal inhabitants of their territories. Linguistically as well as genetically, they are quite distinct from any of the surrounding people.

But what REALLY sold me on the Berbers per se was a movie called "The Wind and The Lion," in which Sean Connery plays a kind of sherif. Very very cool movie.

I'm a huge fan of Berbers wherever they live, and one of my goals is to do some trekking in the Atlas mountains. There's a remote place in S. Morocco called Tizguiedel that I want to explore. I had a student a few years ago who was a Berber, and my barber when I lived in NYC was a Berber as well - Aziz, the Berber barber... Both were very high quality people.

I think you're probably right about that chopper, it does lack some of the curviness of the flyssa, and I'm glad you liked my story. If it DOES end up in some serious publication, remember where you saw it first...maybe I should get it copyrighted!

Cheers,
Patrick

From "Men of Iron", by Howard Pyle:

Quote:

The weapons allowed by the High Court were then measured and attested. They consisted of the long sword, the short sword, the dagger, the mace, and a weapon known as the hand-gisarm, or glave- lot--a heavy swordlike blade eight palms long, a palm in breadth, and riveted to a stout handle of wood three feet long.

The usual lance had not been included in the list of arms, the hand-gisarm being substituted in its place. It was a fearful and murderous weapon, though cumbersome, Unhandy, and ill adapted for quick or dexterous stroke; nevertheless, the Earl of Alban had petitioned the King to have it included in the list, and in answer to the King's expressed desire the Court had adopted it in the stead of the lance, yielding thus much to the royal wishes. Nor was it a small concession. The hand-gisarm had been a weapon very much in vogue in King Richard's day, and was now nearly if not entirely out of fashion with the younger generation of warriors.

For those of you not familiar with his work, Howard Pyle was a Victorian-era author and artist who was best known for his four book series about King Arthur as well as his retelling of the tales of Robin Hood. His novel "Men of Iron" is set at the end of the reign of Henry II, circa 1400 AD.

Pyle was an expert on the arms and armor of the period he wrote about. "Men of Iron" covers the life of its protagonist from page through knighthood, and is one of the better novels of its type I've read. It was also the basis for one of those abysmal Hollywood sword-and-shield epics, "The Black Shield of Falworth", starring Tony Curtis. If you've abused yourself with the movie, do yourself a favor and treat yourself to the book. You can even read it for free online: http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng...c/PylMeno.html

Rick · 7th February 2007, 02:09 PM

I have loved Pyle's artwork since I was a kid .

One of my favorites; An Attack on a Galleon.
http://www.delart.org/view/collections/hp_galleon.html

Other works.
Howard Pyle's Book of Pirates.
Howard Pyle's Book of the American Spirit .

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2007, 04:26 PM

My knowledge on flyssa’s is close to nothing, but tell me something. How old is the flyssa as a type, how old is the first known flyssa (escavated?) and what does the ancient books say about flyssa’s?

Emanuel · 7th February 2007, 04:32 PM

Hi Jens!
That's the big debate, how old is the flyssa as a type? As Jim said, the first known example dates from 1827, I forget whether this is the one presented to the Spanish king, or whether that one was slightly earlier.
I do wonder about archaological records. There must be some digs that have uncovered earlier examples. Patrick's idea about the bronze sword origin is nice, but not possible I think, unless we find 2000-year old flyssas. I will look into contacting some archeological institutes or groups operating in Algeria...there must be some things simply put down as "sword" that aren't known yet.
Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2007, 05:04 PM

Hi Emanuel,

I have a picture of a Tatar sword, but i will not bring it here, as it will end bringing confusion to this thread - I will however start another thread on the sword.

Jens

ariel · 8th February 2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa.

I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean.

With all due respect, I think this ingenious observation is way too fancy. Cogener weapons were shortened, lengthened, curved, straightened and otherwise modified but I know of no weapon that was constructed as a divided part of another blade. Double edged swords and single edged sabers may appear to follow this arrangement, but are derived independently, from totally different cultures.
Clever, but no cigar (at least from me).

5th February 2007, 07:06 AM	#1
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Flyssas Next on my edged-weapon wish list is a flyssa in good shape. I've been admiring these swords for years, and was suddenly struck by their resemblence to an old bronze age sword split down the middle. Anybody know about the development of the flyssa? Could it be a modified form of a bronze age sword? They do say that the Berbers are the aboriginal inhabitants of that part of N. Africa. I found a pic of a bronze age sword of the type I had in mind, and cropped it to show you what I mean. Attached Images

6th February 2007, 04:33 PM	#12
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Oh, here's my last word on flyssas. I found this 39" sword for sale for 19.99 (plus shipping, of course). Regretably, it is only stainless steel, but apart from the upswept tip, I think you'll agree it is a reasonable approximation of a flyssa. Attached Images

6th February 2007, 04:39 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Aye...a poet! Indeed Patrick, you put us to shame I like the story a lot!! But be careful with it or it might end up in some serious publication. It's good to see such an interest in Berber culture though. How did you come to be so attracted to it? The way I see it, the only way to support the claim that the flyssa developed as an indigenous weapon is to find cold hard archaeological evidence. Literary analysis of Ottoman records would be very helpful, but there would always be the nagging doubt, and text can be interpreted a myriad ways. At some point it'd be nice to have the mistery resolved, but I still like it the way it is now...it brings forth a lot of enjoyable stories and suppositions. Best regards, Emanuel I think the piece you posted is a variant of the Maciejowski warbrand: http://www.swordsandcues.com/product...e_cat_544.html A sort of mediaeval chopper derived from pole-arms. Check out some of the Indonesian and Filipino weapons, a few are remarkably similar to the flyssa. Last edited by Manolo; 6th February 2007 at 05:37 PM.

6th February 2007, 05:41 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Maciejowski Actually one might make a case for this chopper :http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ht=Maciejowski to be a sort of precursor of the flyssa as well. Similar blade, albeit with a two-handed hilt. Again, mere suppositions without evidence... Attached Images

7th February 2007, 02:09 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	A Great American Illustrator I have loved Pyle's artwork since I was a kid . One of my favorites; An Attack on a Galleon. http://www.delart.org/view/collections/hp_galleon.html Other works. Howard Pyle's Book of Pirates. Howard Pyle's Book of the American Spirit .

5th February 2007, 12:42 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A very interesting idea, the origins of the Flyssa seems unclear (as you probably know) .It will be interesting to see what others think .... I am sure Manolo (Emanuel) and Jim will add comments

5th February 2007, 01:26 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That's an interesting idea. Check out the "Big Flyssa Thread" in the "Classics" Sticky. Welcome to the forum.

5th February 2007, 03:28 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thats an excellent observation!!! and exactly the kind of thinking that often presents great clues in the study of weapons development. Very impressive, and actually I had never noticed that particular similarity. It is well known that many ethnographic weapons bear striking similarity to ancient weapons found typically in iconographic sources. Atavistic forms have often been believed to have been the influence in many later developed weapons in various cultures. Clearly the Greek kopis, the machaira and the Egyptian khopesh are prime examples. The flyssa is a relative newcomer among many of the swords of North Africa, and its origins are somewhat obscure and obviously widely debated. I am inclined to believe that it likely is derived from early forms of yataghan with somewhat the same deep bellied blade form, as seen in the c.1510 example shown in "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent" (1990, p.64, #50). There is clearly a considerable gap in time from the period of this weapon to the first known appearance of the flyssa c.1827, but again the expanses of time between the kopis' and machaira that likely were the inspiration for the Ottoman weapon are obviously as broad, and demonstrate the atavistic perspective descibed. In using the search feature here, it will be seen that there have been many discussions on the flyssa, especially on how it may have been used in combat. Its use in combat seems supported as I have discovered one among the holdings of a Foreign Legion museum in France which was taken in battle in 1857. Much as the Black Sea 'cousin' of these interesting swords, the flyssa left the working weapon group in a short period, probably about the early part of the 20th c. Best regards, Jim

5th February 2007, 04:35 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello! That's a very interesting theory, with the big problem being how the transition took place between the bronze age sword and the flyssa. How des one get from a double-edged blade to a single edged? Maybe the similarity is purely aesthetic, and maybe there is domething to it. The same problem applies to the yataghan/flyssa relationship, where, as Jim noted, there is a bit of a gap in documentation. As Andrew suggested check out the Big Flyssa Thread, it contains all the discussions ( I think) about these fantastic weapons. I have some crazy theory of my own, but it's way too insane to present at this moment Also, this topic gets me passionate and I end up ranting a lot...so I'll stop now. Emanuel

6th February 2007, 01:27 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Ok Manolo, puulleeze not the one about the aliens!!! Just kidding! All the best, Jim

6th February 2007, 01:30 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nah!!! I'm all about Atlantis Jim

6th February 2007, 01:53 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Right on Emanuel! Really though, there is a lot of speculation on the development of the flyssa, and the link to the Ottoman yataghan seems most plausible to me at this point. However, we can only speculate as I do not know of any proto-flyssa examples that might demonstrate local development outside that influence. I dont think any idea or theory is too outrageous if it can be supported in at least some degree. As always, lots more research to be done. All the best, Jim

6th February 2007, 02:28 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim! Here's a question that has started to nag at me...when did the falcatta iberia cease to be popular, or even marginally used? If the yataghan can be said to have evolved from the kopis, couldn't the same evolution happen in other areas that used similar blades? Algeria is only a stone's throw away from Spain after all, and Spaniards did have a presence on the Algerian coast prior to Ottoman arrival... But as you said, research and more research is needed to support any claim. Best regards, Emanuel

6th February 2007, 04:27 PM	#11
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Elves? Atlantis? Aliens? You guys have no imagination!... I put the "real" story here at my homepage - http://groups.msn.com/TheMadScientis...4&all_topics=0

7th February 2007, 04:26 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	My knowledge on flyssa’s is close to nothing, but tell me something. How old is the flyssa as a type, how old is the first known flyssa (escavated?) and what does the ancient books say about flyssa’s?

7th February 2007, 04:32 PM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jens! That's the big debate, how old is the flyssa as a type? As Jim said, the first known example dates from 1827, I forget whether this is the one presented to the Spanish king, or whether that one was slightly earlier. I do wonder about archaological records. There must be some digs that have uncovered earlier examples. Patrick's idea about the bronze sword origin is nice, but not possible I think, unless we find 2000-year old flyssas. I will look into contacting some archeological institutes or groups operating in Algeria...there must be some things simply put down as "sword" that aren't known yet. Emanuel

7th February 2007, 05:04 PM	#20
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Emanuel, I have a picture of a Tatar sword, but i will not bring it here, as it will end bringing confusion to this thread - I will however start another thread on the sword. Jens