Engraved Sword w/snakeskin,lizard skin Scabbard

[drzzzzz]

Sorry it took so long to get back...1st I'd like to state...This item was purchased from an estate auction {New York State}several mths ago.The seller stated that the sword was stuck in the scabbard and hadnt been removed since who knows when.After I received it ,I tried to remove the sword from the scabbard but could not.It sat in my cloest for severals weeks until a friend of mine came over to look at it.We both tugged and pulled enough for it to break free from the scabbard.To my amazement were these engravings on both sides of the sword,end to end.This hythened my interest enough to find this sight and to post it .To answer a few questions from the previous posts:There are rings on the scabbard and the lower guard seems to be copper,brass,or bronze.The sword seems to have been sharpen at some time ,the tip looks like to have sharpening marks.Ive attached more photos for you to see.I would like to know if possible: Origin...Approx.Age ...Translation of engraving..and Est. Value....or where I might find out these questions.Thanks For All or Any Information...

[tom hyle]

Monetary appraisals are against our noncommercial policy, sorry. The feruling area inside the guard would normally bee filled in with grip material on Turkish, and I think Persian versions of this guard style; what of kaskaras? This one seems empty, and that might be a sign of nontraditional/ignorant modern (not neccessarily foreign though) rehilting. Some folks get very disturbed at rehilting, but if done it was surely done because the old hilt was missing or very badly damaged (for some reason a certain percentage of people always assume I took off a perfectly good handle and threw it away or something, when I say I rehilted a sword, not that that's not just what traditional people commonly did with foreign ones they got). AFAIK this blade almost has to be (more or less) Sudanic African, which I say because of the style of the etching, and Conogre's lizard powers help, too, of course; the mystery is over whether the guard (and handle) is original/foreign/or what, and where/what tribe. I think the flat blade bevelled only at the edge (we think of this as machettelike; I think it shows the African descent of machete) is fairly common; I haven't owned kaskara though; only takouba. Also, I specifically wonder if those brown dots on the handle aren't rusty rivets that are under the leather, and showing thru.

[Conogre]

Honestly, this piece just feels "wrong" as far as a real weapon is concerned, with my honest opinion being that it is either a ceremonial piece, depending upon what the blade inscriptions would translate to or else purposefully assembled to resemble an antique weapon by a tribal smith in hopes of gaining a substantial sale.
Even in N. Africa, they aren't always above fleecing something other than sheep. **grin**
Another possibility is that it's an old tourist sword that may have been intentionally made just to appeal to tourists and may have been sold as such in a bazaar.
Mike

[tom hyle]

I must say, that if you're basing that on thinness and flatness, I don't think those are valid bases for nonfightingness in an African sword; fairly typically (though far from universally) the African has prefferred the quickness and lightness of a thin sword, which also cuts more deeply more easily, though not so well thru anything hard, of course, like bone or armour. Again, takouba I've seen are typically much like this. I know this isn't a takouba; just making a cross-example. Also, of course, one saves on metal, but I truly think that's an over-cited motivation. I think they wanted them like that, for valid martial arts reasons; one encounters this in China, too, in a way; that the better the swordsman the more precise the angular control, the more shockless the parries, the thinner, lighter, faster the sword can be. I think it's an old "real" blade; the dress I'm not sure about, especially the leather-covered parts; I, too feel something "wrong" but I can't put my finger on it. The blade closely reminds me of those on the weird Africishly etched "giant kinzhals"?

[Conogre]

I agree fully on your thoughts in regard to African weapons, Tom, just not kaskaras or even takoubas, which are heavily Arabic in influence and actually atypical for what is commonly thought of as an "African" weapon.
Most of the Bedouin or Taureg swords that I've seen with completely flat blades were primarily tourist pieces.
As I've said before, my very first ethno sword was a kaskara with a rather poor and very thin native made blade but it is none the less lethal because of it and is definitely fullered.
True Telek daggers, on the other hand, are notorious for having very thin, flat non-fullered blades so the blade shape alone doesn't make it "wrong", although many of these do tend to show hammer marks and such, not just smooth, flat metal.
I have to admit that the "wrong" feel to this sword is hard to define, and I think Ariel may have hit on it in the other, original (and hijacked...sorry, sorry, sorry **blush**) thread when he made the comment about scabbards made out of the whole crocodile....simply put, too much reptile leather to be believable, and likewise, the same about the Arabic inscriptions/etching/lettering, just too much in the wrong places!

[Yannis]

I was confused because it is the same sword in two threads. That’s no good.

I say, not for this sword but generally speaking, that people think important the leather of a snake or a lizard. But except of the esthetic value, the real value of lizard or snake skin is less than a cow hide for an African. Actually it is free if he kills the snake and he has not to be brave to do this. But for the European or the American tourist a snake skin gives a touch of adventure and authenticity on the object.

I don’t know if there is program of ecological protection for the African snakes, but they are really in danger of the edged weapons collectors

[tom hyle]

Well, reptile hide is festive.....
The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

[tom hyle]

Kinzhals in the Sudan reminded me of this. I think I spoke too soon; this is probably too small for a "giant kinzhal" blade, though otherwise similar.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Tom in that the hilt on this example seems a bit empty in the crossguard's blade receiving aperture, and clearly this suggests remounting with less than regular skill. I can't really tell much on the sword overall as far as size with such close detail without overall photos, is this supposed to be a kaskara or a large knife/dagger? The thuluth etching is of course consistant with Sudanese items of latter 19th c. during the Mahdia period, but carried into early 20th c. also.
The scabbard and mounts seem of most likely waran (monitor lizard) hide, and are often found on Sudanese knives and daggers.
The thing on these North African edged weapons is that they are still very much a component of everyday costume in most regions, especially in the more remote areas. Therefore it seems quite plausible that weapons were refitted for continued use by often less than skilled tribal owners, and that rather rough items like this have a certain virtue of being authentic tribal pieces even though relatively recent (within last 40 years or more).

Concerning the use of crocodile hides, it seems that a small amount of crocodile hide is often a component of the kaskara hilts in Darfur, and in these regions were primary centers of slaving activity. There is a great deal of fear and respect held toward these reptiles and it seems a degree of totemism in some cases. This was expressed to me in discussion with a man who was a Fur from El Fasher and noted such significance in decoration of weapons. I once suggested that a kaskara seen fully mounted in crocodile hide may have associations with simply looking fearful in the dramatic sense in such troubled regions as involved in the unfortunate commerce of slaving, which has remained a problem even to present times. I also considered that the totemic value may be associated with Beja tribes to the east such as the Beit Ma'ila (Ad Alma=people of the crocodile) and such dramatic motif may be for ceremonial wear. Although these seemed to be plausible enough theories, they were met with pretty negative response and the usual 'tourist piece' rheotoric, and no worthwhile discussion ensued.

Best regards,
Jim

[Conogre]

I agree fully with you in regards to totemic value and ceremonial pieces vs "tourist" weapons, Jim, and wouldn't be at all surprised for this to be authentic in that context vs a traditional battle weapon.
Many don't realize that in the Tauregs, for instance, even today, the "evil eye" is one of the most dreaded and protected against factors in their existance.
MANY cultures had and still have weapons very important to them for fighting against the spirit world, something that many westerners truly don't seem to be able to comprehend, thus they often lump them into the dreaded "tourist" group because they can't see any practical use for them and actually see them as silly, thus valueless.
Viewed in that light I have no trouble looking at this as a real artifact, something I said right at the beginning because of the way the wording is laid on the blade.
It DOES sound more impressive when presented as you have done though, without a doubt...well done!
Mike

[tom hyle]

The erroneous/culturally-specific idea that edged weapons are obsolete does indeed have much to do with the common overapplication of the dreaded "T" word.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mike,
Thanks very much for the kind words, and for the support on my thinking on many of these weapons. One of the biggest problems with the commonly held views and perspective on many ethnographic weapons is the failure to understand the symbolism and meanings imbued in the weapons themselves.

I think this is one of the most important features of Dr. Robert Elgood's new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual". In this he reveals important perspective and facts about these very topics..how those who used the weapons actually perceived them and why. Until now, the weapons of India were always simply catalogued in the manner of most European weapons, typologically and and with categoric comparisons, with little consideration or depth concerning uses or meanings. However there were often unfortunately comments best classified as romanticized misperception, much seen with many ethnographic weapons of virtually all types....for example the broadly used 'executioner' label etc.

I think all ethnographic weapons must be considered with this same thinking, and with that perception which students of the keris have already long established, the subjective symbolism imbued in the weapons themselves.

All the best,
Jim