Identification Help Needed

Robert · 17th December 2012, 06:15 AM

Just picked up this interesting item from epray and now need everyones help in its identification. It was listed as "Antique Indo Persian Mughal Ottoman Turkish Ram Dagger Knanjar Knife Scabbard" but if it is I have never seen one like it. It has a carved horn hilt with a 9 inch blade and an overall length of 13 inches. A few auction pictures below. Any and all help that is offered will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Robert

Dom · 17th December 2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

I was listed as "Antique Indo Persian Mughal Ottoman Turkish Ram Dagger Knanjar Knife Scabbard" but if it is I have never seen one like it.

Hi Robert
i've really a big doubt about the classification as ;
- Indo Persian Mughal Ottoman Turkish
as you said; I have never seen one like it ... me too

i'm watching it ... more from Asia, even, from Far-East

interresting and pleasant knife anyway, good catch

all the best

à +

Dom

Sajen · 17th December 2012, 11:55 AM

Hello Robert,

uups, you did it again!

Now I know who bid me out! Don't worry, I know it now in good hands.

When I would have win it this thread will be from me since I also don't know what it is but think that it is a Visayan utilty knife when I look to the scabbard. Let us see what others will tell us.
BTW, very nice and interesting knife!

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 17th December 2012, 12:12 PM

Look for example the scabbard from my tenegre, very similar brass attachments.

Robert · 17th December 2012, 04:31 PM

Hello Dom, and thank you for your kind words. To say the least the description is very misleading. I too believe that this is from South-East Asia, possibly the Philippines.
Detlef, I am sorry if I out bid you on this but because of the way epray is hiding the bidders identity I did not know that you were bidding on it. I use a bidding service and placed a bid on this when it was first listed and do not check back until the auction is over. This keeps me from getting caught up in the bidding and possibly bidding more than I want or can afford on an item.
What caught my eye on this piece is that it looks to be sharpened on the longer of the two sides of the blade and the strange carving of the hilt. The horn itself on this piece also looks a bit odd. While the scabbard does look like it might be from the Visayans I believe that I have also seen scabbards of this style on Thai pieces. I too am waiting to see what the experts have to say about this interesting knife. I am adding a couple of somewhat clearer pictures of the hilt that will hopefully help show the carving and the graining of the horn better. Thank you both for your help and interest.

Regards,
Robert

Rick · 17th December 2012, 06:14 PM

Interesting to see an elephant depicted on a Philippine knife if that is where it came from .

Tim Simmons · 17th December 2012, 06:20 PM

Good point Rick. The scabbard is like many from Burma. There be elephants?

Sajen · 17th December 2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

What caught my eye on this piece is that it looks to be sharpened on the longer of the two sides of the blade and the strange carving of the hilt.

The blade shape remember to the sangi knifes from the Bagobo, see in up from the attached picture.

Robert · 17th December 2012, 08:47 PM

I know that I have seen this blade profile before but as usual I cannot remember where.

The hilt on the other hand with the elephant head carving is something for me all together new. The hilt material is also got me a little confused, where on carabao horn you can usually see layering this has more of a stacked rod appearance to it to my eye. What are everyones thoughts on that?

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 17th December 2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Interesting to see an elephant depicted on a Philippine knife if that is where it came from .

Hello Rick,

I am not sure if it should be an elepfant.

The seller write in his description ram head, a good imagination IMHO.

Tim,

yes there are elephants in Burma. That it could come from there is an option.

Regards,

Detlef

Robert · 17th December 2012, 09:05 PM

Hello Detlef, Like Rick I am pretty sure that this is supposed to represent an elephants head with the trunk and the short tusk shown quite clearly. The small ears would be an Asian elephant if memory serves me correctly. How the seller could see a rams head in this carving is beyond me.

Regards,
Robert

Sajen · 17th December 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Detlef, Like Rick I am pretty sure that this is supposed to represent an elephants head with the trunk and the short tusk shown quite clearly. The small ears would be an Asian elephant if memory serves me correctly. How the seller could see a rams head in this carving is beyond me.

Regards,
Robert

Hello Robert,

have to agree, I have seen in the tusks the mouth of the figure. So is Tim maybe correct, Thailand, Burma seems a very good point.

Hope that someone will be able to tell us more.

Regards,

Detlef

David R · 21st December 2012, 11:26 PM

the scabbard looks Burmese or Thai...nice win!

Robert · 23rd December 2012, 03:20 AM

The dagger arrived today so here are a few pictures. The hilt material does not look like the water buffalo horn that I am used to seeing. There are a couple of pictures of the blade where I tried to show the pattern in the steel that did not turn out very well but will still give an idea of what it looks like. There are also a couple pf pictures that show the decorations on the top and bottom scabbard bands. I hope that these might help in placing where this dagger originated. Thank you all for your help so far and I am looking forward to any other comments anyone would like to offer.

Regards,
Robert

Robert · 23rd December 2012, 03:22 AM

Last of the pictures.

Battara · 23rd December 2012, 03:22 AM

Yup those are tusks and the material seems to be horn.

Robert · 23rd December 2012, 03:32 AM

Jose, do you have any thoughts on where this might have originated from ?

Regards,
Robert

Battara · 23rd December 2012, 05:40 AM

Well I am leaning toward Southeast Asian peninsula. I have seen scabbard work like this from Cambodia, etc. (as well as the Philippines).

Dom · 24th December 2012, 02:49 AM

Hi
the general shape of this dagger remind me yours
unfortunately, no picture for the blade
anyway, could be an indication
I was looking for something else in my book,
when I saw that and I did a scan

à +

Dom

Robert · 27th December 2012, 05:44 AM

Hello Dom and thank you for your help. Sorry it has taken so long to reply to your post but with the holiday and all the family visiting it was hard to find any time to respond. I have spent the last day looking up information on the type of dagger you have shown in your reply only to find that the blade shape on all that I could locate are of a cleaver style and shape. Hopefully someone will recognize this strange dagger and can identify where it originates from. Again, thank you again for your help.

Regards,
Robert

17th December 2012, 06:15 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Identification Help Needed Just picked up this interesting item from epray and now need everyones help in its identification. It was listed as "Antique Indo Persian Mughal Ottoman Turkish Ram Dagger Knanjar Knife Scabbard" but if it is I have never seen one like it. It has a carved horn hilt with a 9 inch blade and an overall length of 13 inches. A few auction pictures below. Any and all help that is offered will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 17th December 2012 at 01:14 PM.

17th December 2012, 11:55 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Robert, uups, you did it again! Now I know who bid me out! Don't worry, I know it now in good hands. When I would have win it this thread will be from me since I also don't know what it is but think that it is a Visayan utilty knife when I look to the scabbard. Let us see what others will tell us. BTW, very nice and interesting knife! Best regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 17th December 2012 at 03:04 PM.

17th December 2012, 12:12 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Look for example the scabbard from my tenegre, very similar brass attachments. Attached Images

17th December 2012, 04:31 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dom, and thank you for your kind words. To say the least the description is very misleading. I too believe that this is from South-East Asia, possibly the Philippines. Detlef, I am sorry if I out bid you on this but because of the way epray is hiding the bidders identity I did not know that you were bidding on it. I use a bidding service and placed a bid on this when it was first listed and do not check back until the auction is over. This keeps me from getting caught up in the bidding and possibly bidding more than I want or can afford on an item. What caught my eye on this piece is that it looks to be sharpened on the longer of the two sides of the blade and the strange carving of the hilt. The horn itself on this piece also looks a bit odd. While the scabbard does look like it might be from the Visayans I believe that I have also seen scabbards of this style on Thai pieces. I too am waiting to see what the experts have to say about this interesting knife. I am adding a couple of somewhat clearer pictures of the hilt that will hopefully help show the carving and the graining of the horn better. Thank you both for your help and interest. Regards, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 17th December 2012 at 04:46 PM.

23rd December 2012, 03:20 AM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The dagger arrived today so here are a few pictures. The hilt material does not look like the water buffalo horn that I am used to seeing. There are a couple of pictures of the blade where I tried to show the pattern in the steel that did not turn out very well but will still give an idea of what it looks like. There are also a couple pf pictures that show the decorations on the top and bottom scabbard bands. I hope that these might help in placing where this dagger originated. Thank you all for your help so far and I am looking forward to any other comments anyone would like to offer. Regards, Robert Attached Images

17th December 2012, 06:14 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Interesting to see an elephant depicted on a Philippine knife if that is where it came from .

17th December 2012, 06:20 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Good point Rick. The scabbard is like many from Burma. There be elephants?

17th December 2012, 08:47 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I know that I have seen this blade profile before but as usual I cannot remember where. The hilt on the other hand with the elephant head carving is something for me all together new. The hilt material is also got me a little confused, where on carabao horn you can usually see layering this has more of a stacked rod appearance to it to my eye. What are everyones thoughts on that? Regards, Robert

17th December 2012, 09:05 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Like Rick I am pretty sure that this is supposed to represent an elephants head with the trunk and the short tusk shown quite clearly. The small ears would be an Asian elephant if memory serves me correctly. How the seller could see a rams head in this carving is beyond me. Regards, Robert

21st December 2012, 11:26 PM	#13
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	the scabbard looks Burmese or Thai...nice win!

23rd December 2012, 03:22 AM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Last of the pictures. Attached Images

23rd December 2012, 03:22 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yup those are tusks and the material seems to be horn.

23rd December 2012, 03:32 AM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Jose, do you have any thoughts on where this might have originated from ? Regards, Robert

23rd December 2012, 05:40 AM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Well I am leaning toward Southeast Asian peninsula. I have seen scabbard work like this from Cambodia, etc. (as well as the Philippines).

24th December 2012, 02:49 AM	#19
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi the general shape of this dagger remind me yours unfortunately, no picture for the blade anyway, could be an indication I was looking for something else in my book, when I saw that and I did a scan à + Dom Attached Images

27th December 2012, 05:44 AM	#20
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dom and thank you for your help. Sorry it has taken so long to reply to your post but with the holiday and all the family visiting it was hard to find any time to respond. I have spent the last day looking up information on the type of dagger you have shown in your reply only to find that the blade shape on all that I could locate are of a cleaver style and shape. Hopefully someone will recognize this strange dagger and can identify where it originates from. Again, thank you again for your help. Regards, Robert