Yataghan inscription translation please

eftihis · 3rd August 2006, 07:12 PM

Well,
Just want to tell that this is not mine, it belongs to a friend here in Chania, so no jealous comments please...

Anybody can translate?

Zifir · 3rd August 2006, 11:37 PM

Hi efhitis,

the first inscription is

Tevekkeltu alallah ya Allah beni kurtar Sene 816 : I put all my trust to God, O God ! Protect (save) me. Year H 816/ Georgian 1413-14

The second one is:

Sahib mu'min Abdi Ağa : muslim (or believer) owner Abdi Ağa

Battara · 4th August 2006, 02:48 AM

Is there any way you could post the hilt as well?

Beautiful silverwork and coral gems.

eftihis · 4th August 2006, 08:15 AM

Zifir, many thanks for the translation!
Battara, the hilt is for retoration, and i do not have photo, i will post as soon asit is ready.

erlikhan · 4th August 2006, 09:59 AM

Why should one get jealous about this "thing"? It is a simple and very ordinary weapon.Perhaps belonged to a shepherd to protect his sheep on field?

I have no idea about the writing, but nothing deserves to be discussed more than the dating which is correct as 816 Hicri.Is the writing style and grammer original to the date? Or a modern cheating,or an antique cheating if was produced later, lets say in 18th century or so?

regards

Zifir · 4th August 2006, 03:42 PM

I am definitely not an expert in paleography. Yet I can share a few points which attracted my uneducated gaze about the inscriptions.

The second inscription is a very nice nesih and it is possible to see documents, texts written in nesih for the early fifteenth century. Yet, the first one is a very indecisive script. It starts as a rika and ends with like nesih. Rika is a script which was widely used from the 18th century to the end of the empire.

The word "kurtar (meaning to save, protect)" is also problematic since kurtar is written with 'te' not with 'tı' in Ottoman Turkish. We cannot expect from swordmakers to be highly literate persons and punctual about the spelling, but the person who wrote the script seemed to me following the turkish wovel harmony and assumed that kurtar should be written with a "tı".

erlikhan · 9th August 2006, 12:56 AM

so looks like a modern work? (only the inscription of course)

ariel · 9th August 2006, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

Hi efhitis,

the first inscription is

Tevekkeltu alallah ya Allah beni kurtar Sene 816 : I put all my trust to God, O God ! Protect (save) me. Year H 816/ Georgian 1413-14

The second one is:

Sahib mu'min Abdi Ağa : muslim (or believer) owner Abdi Ağa

If your dating is correct, this makes this Yataghan ~150 years older than the one belonging to Suleiman Kanuni (By Ahmet Tekelu) considered to be the oldest known example. I doubt it very much.

Zifir · 9th August 2006, 04:42 AM

I can say for sure that the script in the first picture has nothing to do with the early fifteenth century. I think the original script was the second one and the yatagan had no date. It is highly probable that someone later added the first script and the date.

ariel · 9th August 2006, 12:39 PM

I will sleep better

The entire ensemle looks 19th century to me and the blade is far too pristine for 15th century. I agree: latter addition of the inscription and a bit exaggerated to boot.

Also, the middle panel of the scabbard looks somewhat different from the rest. I suspect it was "renovated'.

3rd August 2006, 07:12 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Yataghan inscription translation please Well, Just want to tell that this is not mine, it belongs to a friend here in Chania, so no jealous comments please... Anybody can translate? Attached Images

3rd August 2006, 11:37 PM	#2
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Hi efhitis, the first inscription is Tevekkeltu alallah ya Allah beni kurtar Sene 816 : I put all my trust to God, O God ! Protect (save) me. Year H 816/ Georgian 1413-14 The second one is: Sahib mu'min Abdi Ağa : muslim (or believer) owner Abdi Ağa Last edited by Zifir; 4th August 2006 at 12:37 AM.

9th August 2006, 04:42 AM	#9
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I can say for sure that the script in the first picture has nothing to do with the early fifteenth century. I think the original script was the second one and the yatagan had no date. It is highly probable that someone later added the first script and the date. Last edited by Zifir; 9th August 2006 at 04:54 AM.

4th August 2006, 02:48 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Is there any way you could post the hilt as well? Beautiful silverwork and coral gems.

4th August 2006, 08:15 AM	#4
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Zifir, many thanks for the translation! Battara, the hilt is for retoration, and i do not have photo, i will post as soon asit is ready.

4th August 2006, 09:59 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Why should one get jealous about this "thing"? It is a simple and very ordinary weapon.Perhaps belonged to a shepherd to protect his sheep on field? I have no idea about the writing, but nothing deserves to be discussed more than the dating which is correct as 816 Hicri.Is the writing style and grammer original to the date? Or a modern cheating,or an antique cheating if was produced later, lets say in 18th century or so? regards

4th August 2006, 03:42 PM	#6
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	I am definitely not an expert in paleography. Yet I can share a few points which attracted my uneducated gaze about the inscriptions. The second inscription is a very nice nesih and it is possible to see documents, texts written in nesih for the early fifteenth century. Yet, the first one is a very indecisive script. It starts as a rika and ends with like nesih. Rika is a script which was widely used from the 18th century to the end of the empire. The word "kurtar (meaning to save, protect)" is also problematic since kurtar is written with 'te' not with 'tı' in Ottoman Turkish. We cannot expect from swordmakers to be highly literate persons and punctual about the spelling, but the person who wrote the script seemed to me following the turkish wovel harmony and assumed that kurtar should be written with a "tı".

9th August 2006, 12:56 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	so looks like a modern work? (only the inscription of course)

9th August 2006, 12:39 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I will sleep better The entire ensemle looks 19th century to me and the blade is far too pristine for 15th century. I agree: latter addition of the inscription and a bit exaggerated to boot. Also, the middle panel of the scabbard looks somewhat different from the rest. I suspect it was "renovated'.