Sword inscription

[fernando]

On behalf of new member bramiam, we are submitting in this forum section the following thread, that was originally posted in the "Early makers trade marks" sticky which, by the way, for some imponderable reasons has colapsed :

"I apologise if this is the incorrect thread for this inquiry, but as a lot of knowledge seems to be gathered here, I thought I'd give it a shot.

I have recently taken an interest in a supposed late 15th century Biedenhänder that is displayed at a local museum as having belonged to a historically significant person. The sword in question is so monstrously large (84", 14 lb 9 oz) that I cannot imagine it to be anything else than a ceremonial sword.

The museum's staff were not able to give me much information on the sword - their main interest is in preserving it as an object of cultural significance. I found some markings that I thought might provide a point of entry for some amateur sleuthing.

First, there appears to be a maker's marking near the hilt. I've examined every post in this thread and googled 'till my eyes hurt, but can't find anything similar. Does it ring a bell for any of you?

The second is an engraving next to a capital "I". I believe this "I" is the last letter in a widely spaced and crude "I N R I" engraving along the length of the blade, but I'm not 100% sure, as I can only make out "I N (unrecognisable) I". Is the needle-like inscription for decorative purposes, or do any of you recognise it?

Thanks a lot for your time!"

bramiam


.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, bramiam.
Let us see what the members say about these marks.
Meanwhile can you post an image of the whole sword ? That would potentially help to ID the marks and also make it fit for the forum archives.
And by the way, could you tell the museum in which this sword is kept ?

Fernando

[fernando]

Dear fernando, thank you very much! Of course, below is some more info.

The sword is kept in the Fries Museum in Leeuwarden, The Netherlands. It is said to have belonged to 'Grutte' Pier Donia (~1480-1520), a Frisian rebel leader. See below for a picture of one of his descendants holding the sword (to get some idea of how absurdly large it really is).

All I could find is that it was likely made in Germany, and anecdotal confirmation of my suspicion that the inscription is indeed the Christian abbreviation INRI. Both from a non-academic sources. Looking forward to any insights.

bramiam

.

[fernando]

Wow, Grutte Pier descendant may be a tall man, but the sword is no small deal. Let us transfer this thread to the European Forum section, so that members in there may have a say about this sword and its inscriptions.

Fernando

[ALEX]

The mark on the first image resembles a Tatar tamga, but more probable references can be found in THIS POST

[Jim McDougall]

I had read this with great interest, and have been researching for days, and often included GOOGLE in my efforts, so I can well relate to the eye strain.
As Fernando has noted in his research, the individual claimed to have had this sword is to the Friesen rebel leader Grutte Pier Donia (1480-1520) which translates loosely (according to Wikipedia) a person of great strength and very large.

As noted, this example is incredibly large, and as described in other sources (published) such as 'Wallace Collection' (1962) with references to various 'zweihanders' of over 4 ft. length, these were more for ceremonial use. It is interesting that this one lacks the familiar protrusions (lugs) on the sides of the blade known as 'parierhaken' (parrying hooks), which seem to be an invariable feature on these huge swords of 15th-16th c.

I think first it is important to note the 'legendary' status of this person, and the tales which are mindful of other monumental historic figures which have been embellished into much larger than life figures. In the spirit of iconic items which commemoratively represent them, it seems understandable that a sword of this heft might have been made to represent him in a public venue such as a museum.

Presuming that this is a sword produced later, the markings stamped in the blade are in the manner of numerous makers, which are difficult to trace often as there are so many, but these seem authentically placed so were of course probably correct. The style of these geometric devices are much like countless variations used in Switzerland, Germany, and N. Europe, in many ways mindful of the 'fylfot cross' (or gammodion/swastika). The periods of these do seem to be in around 16th c. but without reasonable match it is hard to say.

The 'engraved' device which seems paired to the 'INRI' (as supposed) is very much like similar devices seen on blades from Passau in latter 15th c. and in the 16thc. These often have a heart (in place of the orientation of the 'INRI') and have lozenges placed in the same spacing on the line from the heart/INRI or whatever is there presumably (see Kinman, p.130).

It seems possible that this device was applied in imitation of the Passau type devices. These typically had religiously oriented talismanic value, as did most of these 'latten' (brass or copper) filled devices used in Passau.
That this does not have this filling suggests it is likely copied as typically this survives more durably than the rest of the blade.

I would suggest this is probably a commemorative and votive item produced in memory of this heroic figure, and probably much later, perhaps 17th ?
There were considerable antiquarian movements around this time and placement of such an item would be most understandable.

I do hope others out there might see this and have more reliable or useful information.

Thank you Bramiam for posting this fascinating sword with us.

[Reventlov]

There are several other bearing swords of similar dimensions and physical features. Two in the Royal Armouries are generally identified as having belonged to either Henry IV or V, which would date them to the early 15th century. Other similar swords are usually not dated any more precisely than "15th-16th century". Note that the pommel of one of these is particularly similar to the so-called sword of Grutte Pier, as is another in the Rijksmuseum.

The suggestion of an "INRI" inscription is very plausible, this appears on a number of other examples. In particular it appears on another bearing sword that was formerly in the Higgins Armoury, as does the other mark, which is likely a representation of a bishop's crozier. As Jim says, this is one of the marks that is generally associated with Passau. This sword also has a pair of stamped marks very similar in style to those upon the sword in question.

For comparison, I include a drawing of the inscription on a sword in Vienna which I would suggest is more likely to be a Passau original, and not an imitation. The crozier is more clearly rendered, the famous wolf-mark is included, as is the text "INRI" (though the "N" was forgotten!)

[NeilUK]

I don't think we should dismiss Grutte Pier's sword as a late replica without positive evidence - which would need detailed examination in the 'flesh'.
There exist several very large Bearing or Ceremonial swords like this, some even bigger, with reasonable history. This sword is 213cm long but the 15th century Corvinus sword in Istanbul is 270cm long (the biggest that I know), Dresden has a 'Thing' (parliament) sword at 265.7cm, Edinburgh has the 'Sempill' sword, carried before Mary, Queen of Scots, at the battle of Langside, at 256cm, not to mention the two in the Royal Armouries posted by Reventlov, at 231 and 226.5cm respectively. There are lots more very big swords intended purely for ceremony not for combat, dating back to the 14th century.
Reventlov: could you tell us where the other swords are which you posted, apart from the 2 R.A. ones, especially the one with the very bent, or upside down, quillons. Thank you to all, esp. Bramiam for bringing this sword to our attention.
Neil

[Reventlov]

The photos did not appear in the order I intended them, to match my comments...

The first sword with the bent quillons is the one in the Rijksmuseum, then the second (with closeups) is from the Higgins, and is now in the Worcester art museum that retained some of the former collection.

[NeilUK]

Thanks, Reventlov.
I forgot to say that I have seen a blade mark very similar to that on G.P.D.'s sword on 2-hander blades made in S.Germany, probably Passau. My basic feeling is that Grutte Pier's sword is early 15th century.
Regards to all,
Neil