The Oriental arms & armour collection at the V&A?

Aqtai · 4th September 2005, 08:48 PM

Hi all,

I was in london today on family business, and I decided to pop into the Victoria and Albert Museum to have a look at their Oriental weapons and armour collection as I have not been there since 1999. I noticed the Museum was undergoing a major refurbishment and I couldn't find the Arms galleries anywhere. I asked a couple of members of staff and was given two different answers:
a) The collection has been split up and redistributed into the other collections.
b) There isn't any place for it anymore and it will remain in storage.

I noticed on the V&A website the refurbishment is called FuturePlan and no mention is made of the arms collection.

Apart from feeling disappointed, I'm also rather upset that a major collection of Oriental weaponry is no longer accessible to the public.

Does anyone have any information about the fate of the V&A armour collection?

BTW there is still a small collection of Indian weapons and armour in the South Asia section and I quite enjoyed that part of it.

Rich · 4th September 2005, 10:04 PM

You might contact Clive Sinclaire, Chairman of the To-Ken Society
of Great Britain, he might have some info. His email is one the To-Ken
Society Website as being:

Clive@to-ken.com

Let us know if you find out anything.
Rich S

Jens Nordlunde · 4th September 2005, 10:24 PM

Hi Aqtai,

It is like with the Moser Collection in Bern, Switzerland, the Ethnographical collection in Copenhagen, and so many other collections around (there was a thread on this subject here about two years ago) – they are being taking down, and no one knows if they will ever be shown again – so much for the museum people, saying that the weapons should be in the museums, rather than in private collections – be course in the museums the weapons will be shown and studied – I wonder what they think the weapons are in private collections, if not studied and shown to fellow collectors!

I find their attitude very arrogant, as they don’t offer any explanation as to when the weapons will be exhibited again, or if they ever will, nor do they offer any suggestions of, how interested people (collectors) possible will be able to see the collections. To me it seems, as if they don’t care, but I would very much like to be proven wrong. I do know that there are museums where one can make an arrangement, but I am not sure how many of the museums that count for, and if you get an appointment – you better be on time.

B.I · 4th September 2005, 10:42 PM

hi aqtai,
the V&A put their arms away a couple of years ago, after tony north retired. the problem they have is space, and catering for the general public. i know we are all passionate about arms, but the general public have but a passing interest and this doesnt keep the doors open of our institutions.
the few pieces left in the south asia dept are all that are on show, and they are good examples and of great quality.
there are a number of japanese arms and armour on display as well. the islamic galleries are being refurbished, and there was a good turban helmet and a couple of swords on show, which i assume will come back when the galleries are opened again. the museums disbanded the entrance fee and in doing so, they have to justify their existance by the amount of 'tourists' and visitors they attract. to do this, they have to constantly change the temporary exhibitions and keep the permanent exhibitions attractive to all.
i complained at the time, when the arms were taken down, as did many others but i do understand theor polices. there are still enough enthusiast people working there with a passion for arms (susan stronge etc) that would love to have the eastern arms back, but its not the time at the moment. pieces can be seen if you make the right appointment and there is enough on show to keep visitors happy (the wallace still has all on display).
the topics of museums has reared a few times, on diverse posts and i will always defend them. they do what they have to with a very limited budget, and each staff member are as passionate as any collector i have ever met.
they will help out any serious collector in their study and access to all pieces can be had, if done so for research.
thereis no plan for the arms to be back on show, but there will be (and have been) good exhibitions on specific subjects (sikhs a while back, east meets west more recently) and there will also lend pieces for other institutions.
the V&A went the same way as the tower did, accepting that the main museum will now be in leeds where they can properly display their arms, and london will cater for other tastes, with arms at a minimum.
jens, i understand the situation with berne, and i agree it isnt right. i promise this isnt the case the the V&A. there is no arrogance there, and the collector and researcher is and always has been of utmost importance. i wish it was the same in switzerland.

Aqtai · 5th September 2005, 01:10 PM

Thanks everyone for all the replies. I am still disappointed and hope that the V&A even if they have decided not to have a separate Arms and Armour Gallery, incorporate some of the items into the Islamic galleries when they reopen in Summer 2006. The Wallace collection is a fine collection, but AFAIK they have no Ottoman or Pre-Safavid Iranian items, they also have a policy of no photography and I don't recall any books with photographs of items from their Oriental arms gallery.

The V&A did have a couple of Turco-Iranian mail-and-plate shirts as well as a partial "krug" style armour in addition to their Turkish and Iranian weapons collection. The South Asia section and the Wallace collection has no equivalent to these and that is another reason I am disappointed. The only place see items like this in future I guess will be the Royal armouries in Leeds and abroad. I will have to take great care of the photos I took in the V&A back in 1989 and 1999.

Just out of curiousity, apart from Berne, what other public collections of Oriental arms have shut down in the last decade or so?

B.I · 5th September 2005, 01:20 PM

hi aqtai,
are you aware of the ottoman armour in the british museum. there isnt much, but the are a couple of 'turban' helmets, including one of the largest i have ever seen, and a great fully inscribed krug.

Aqtai · 5th September 2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
are you aware of the ottoman armour in the british museum. there isnt much, but the are a couple of 'turban' helmets, including one of the largest i have ever seen, and a great fully inscribed krug.

I've been to the British Museum a few times, but I wasn't aware of their Ottoman armour. I'll pay them a visit next time I'm in London. Thanks!

B.I · 5th September 2005, 01:32 PM

as i said, there isnt much but still worth seeing.

Aqtai · 5th September 2005, 01:45 PM

Thanks for the pictures, those are well worth seeing!

Ann Feuerbach · 8th September 2005, 04:50 PM

FYI, David Edge from the Wallace Collection is working on getting all the pieces cleaned and photographed for a book. When in London I even volunteered to help. But Red tape and politics is holding them up but at least it is in the works. He wants it to include technological info as well, but the powers that be only want a "pretty" coffee tablebook. No money for technical examination, but plenty for 6 foot blowups of patterns.

B.I · 9th September 2005, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

FYI, David Edge from the Wallace Collection is working on getting all the pieces cleaned and photographed for a book. When in London I even volunteered to help. But Red tape and politics is holding them up but at least it is in the works. He wants it to include technological info as well, but the powers that be only want a "pretty" coffee tablebook. No money for technical examination, but plenty for 6 foot blowups of patterns.

hi ann,
although davids background has always been european arms, his has a personal passion for the oriental collection. he raised a 'chunk' of money to devote to the catalogueing and photographing of the oriental pieces, but the 'powers that be' decided to spend it on the european pieces instead. its a shame, as the original texts are still relatively accurate, and will be supplemented along with great images, whereas the Laking catalogue of the oriental side is in desperte need of re-writing, as well as images which have never existed.
one day, they will get round to doing it, but it will be some years.
david has always talked of getting a number of people to help with the descriptions, so if it can be avoided, it wont be just another coffee table book. but, there has always been red-tape involved with the wallace collection, as you say.
if they ever do find the additional funds, there are a number of people that will push for a more academic book.

Aqtai · 9th September 2005, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

FYI, David Edge from the Wallace Collection is working on getting all the pieces cleaned and photographed for a book. When in London I even volunteered to help. But Red tape and politics is holding them up but at least it is in the works. He wants it to include technological info as well, but the powers that be only want a "pretty" coffee tablebook. No money for technical examination, but plenty for 6 foot blowups of patterns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi ann,
although davids background has always been european arms, his has a personal passion for the oriental collection. he raised a 'chunk' of money to devote to the catalogueing and photographing of the oriental pieces, but the 'powers that be' decided to spend it on the european pieces instead. its a shame, as the original texts are still relatively accurate, and will be supplemented along with great images, whereas the Laking catalogue of the oriental side is in desperte need of re-writing, as well as images which have never existed.
one day, they will get round to doing it, but it will be some years.
david has always talked of getting a number of people to help with the descriptions, so if it can be avoided, it wont be just another coffee table book. but, there has always been red-tape involved with the wallace collection, as you say.
if they ever do find the additional funds, there are a number of people that will push for a more academic book.

That is a great pity, the Wallace Collection's Oriental Arms are long overdue for publication, I would certainly buy that book, I actually probably will buy the European Arms book if and when it's published, but I will be eagerly waiting for the "sequel".

I do own Laking's book and I know what you mean, it's just so tantalising having all these descriptions but no pictures!

Ann Feuerbach · 13th September 2005, 04:39 PM

It is really a pity that the oriental armor won't get published soon. Thanks for the update. I won't hold my breath.

4th September 2005, 08:48 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	The Oriental arms & armour collection at the V&A? Hi all, I was in london today on family business, and I decided to pop into the Victoria and Albert Museum to have a look at their Oriental weapons and armour collection as I have not been there since 1999. I noticed the Museum was undergoing a major refurbishment and I couldn't find the Arms galleries anywhere. I asked a couple of members of staff and was given two different answers: a) The collection has been split up and redistributed into the other collections. b) There isn't any place for it anymore and it will remain in storage. I noticed on the V&A website the refurbishment is called FuturePlan and no mention is made of the arms collection. Apart from feeling disappointed, I'm also rather upset that a major collection of Oriental weaponry is no longer accessible to the public. Does anyone have any information about the fate of the V&A armour collection? BTW there is still a small collection of Indian weapons and armour in the South Asia section and I quite enjoyed that part of it.

5th September 2005, 01:32 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	as i said, there isnt much but still worth seeing. Attached Images

4th September 2005, 10:04 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	You might contact Clive Sinclaire, Chairman of the To-Ken Society of Great Britain, he might have some info. His email is one the To-Ken Society Website as being: Clive@to-ken.com Let us know if you find out anything. Rich S

4th September 2005, 10:24 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Aqtai, It is like with the Moser Collection in Bern, Switzerland, the Ethnographical collection in Copenhagen, and so many other collections around (there was a thread on this subject here about two years ago) – they are being taking down, and no one knows if they will ever be shown again – so much for the museum people, saying that the weapons should be in the museums, rather than in private collections – be course in the museums the weapons will be shown and studied – I wonder what they think the weapons are in private collections, if not studied and shown to fellow collectors! I find their attitude very arrogant, as they don’t offer any explanation as to when the weapons will be exhibited again, or if they ever will, nor do they offer any suggestions of, how interested people (collectors) possible will be able to see the collections. To me it seems, as if they don’t care, but I would very much like to be proven wrong. I do know that there are museums where one can make an arrangement, but I am not sure how many of the museums that count for, and if you get an appointment – you better be on time.

4th September 2005, 10:42 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, the V&A put their arms away a couple of years ago, after tony north retired. the problem they have is space, and catering for the general public. i know we are all passionate about arms, but the general public have but a passing interest and this doesnt keep the doors open of our institutions. the few pieces left in the south asia dept are all that are on show, and they are good examples and of great quality. there are a number of japanese arms and armour on display as well. the islamic galleries are being refurbished, and there was a good turban helmet and a couple of swords on show, which i assume will come back when the galleries are opened again. the museums disbanded the entrance fee and in doing so, they have to justify their existance by the amount of 'tourists' and visitors they attract. to do this, they have to constantly change the temporary exhibitions and keep the permanent exhibitions attractive to all. i complained at the time, when the arms were taken down, as did many others but i do understand theor polices. there are still enough enthusiast people working there with a passion for arms (susan stronge etc) that would love to have the eastern arms back, but its not the time at the moment. pieces can be seen if you make the right appointment and there is enough on show to keep visitors happy (the wallace still has all on display). the topics of museums has reared a few times, on diverse posts and i will always defend them. they do what they have to with a very limited budget, and each staff member are as passionate as any collector i have ever met. they will help out any serious collector in their study and access to all pieces can be had, if done so for research. thereis no plan for the arms to be back on show, but there will be (and have been) good exhibitions on specific subjects (sikhs a while back, east meets west more recently) and there will also lend pieces for other institutions. the V&A went the same way as the tower did, accepting that the main museum will now be in leeds where they can properly display their arms, and london will cater for other tastes, with arms at a minimum. jens, i understand the situation with berne, and i agree it isnt right. i promise this isnt the case the the V&A. there is no arrogance there, and the collector and researcher is and always has been of utmost importance. i wish it was the same in switzerland.

5th September 2005, 01:10 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks everyone for all the replies. I am still disappointed and hope that the V&A even if they have decided not to have a separate Arms and Armour Gallery, incorporate some of the items into the Islamic galleries when they reopen in Summer 2006. The Wallace collection is a fine collection, but AFAIK they have no Ottoman or Pre-Safavid Iranian items, they also have a policy of no photography and I don't recall any books with photographs of items from their Oriental arms gallery. The V&A did have a couple of Turco-Iranian mail-and-plate shirts as well as a partial "krug" style armour in addition to their Turkish and Iranian weapons collection. The South Asia section and the Wallace collection has no equivalent to these and that is another reason I am disappointed. The only place see items like this in future I guess will be the Royal armouries in Leeds and abroad. I will have to take great care of the photos I took in the V&A back in 1989 and 1999. Just out of curiousity, apart from Berne, what other public collections of Oriental arms have shut down in the last decade or so?

5th September 2005, 01:20 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, are you aware of the ottoman armour in the british museum. there isnt much, but the are a couple of 'turban' helmets, including one of the largest i have ever seen, and a great fully inscribed krug.

5th September 2005, 01:45 PM	#9
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for the pictures, those are well worth seeing!

8th September 2005, 04:50 PM	#10
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	FYI, David Edge from the Wallace Collection is working on getting all the pieces cleaned and photographed for a book. When in London I even volunteered to help. But Red tape and politics is holding them up but at least it is in the works. He wants it to include technological info as well, but the powers that be only want a "pretty" coffee tablebook. No money for technical examination, but plenty for 6 foot blowups of patterns.

13th September 2005, 04:39 PM	#13
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	It is really a pity that the oriental armor won't get published soon. Thanks for the update. I won't hold my breath.