Napoleonic? Hangar type grip, Straight blade

Jon MB · 6th October 2017, 04:26 PM

Hello All,

Hope we are having a good day.

What do we think of this? French/Continental? Naval? Circa 1780?

Straight blade, 81 cm -Blade older than grips?

Basket hilt, one branch period removed.

Fishskin grips, remains of binding wire.

All comments welcomed. Many thanks

Dmitry · 14th October 2017, 03:37 AM

Probably Dutch.

M ELEY · 14th October 2017, 05:08 AM

Dmitry is right. The hilt is definitely Dutch, m1790 marinesabal pattern, but with a straight blade??? The Dutch marine swords usually have a curved blade, but the classic bird head grip, fish skin, raised capstan with offset screw securing the knucklebow is spot on for this model/pattern. It appears as if one of the hilt bars has been removed?

Interestingly enough, the late (great!) George Gilkerson surmised (along with other naval experts) in 'Boarders Away' that the m1790 pattern was exported to the United States during the 1790's to supply the newly formed U.S. marine corps. Evidence pointing to this distinct possibility is that the m1790 Dutch sabers used on the continent were all extensively marked with regimental marks, battalion marks, proofs, etc. whereas the ones shipped out bore no markings.

If we follow this logic, this could have been an export/prototype straight bladed naval saber/hanger for private purchase use. Just a thought. Very nice sword, in any case-
M Eley

Here's mine-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11432

Jon MB · 14th October 2017, 11:16 AM

Gentlemen, thank you for comments and further information, nice to see other examples.

Jim McDougall · 14th October 2017, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Dmitry is right. The hilt is definitely Dutch, m1790 marinesabal pattern, but with a straight blade??? The Dutch marine swords usually have a curved blade, but the classic bird head grip, fish skin, raised capstan with offset screw securing the knucklebow is spot on for this model/pattern. It appears as if one of the hilt bars has been removed?

Interestingly enough, the late (great!) George Gilkerson surmised (along with other naval experts) in 'Boarders Away' that the m1790 pattern was exported to the United States during the 1790's to supply the newly formed U.S. marine corps. Evidence pointing to this distinct possibility is that the m1790 Dutch sabers used on the continent were all extensively marked with regimental marks, battalion marks, proofs, etc. whereas the ones shipped out bore no markings.

If we follow this logic, this could have been an export/prototype straight bladed naval saber/hanger for private purchase use. Just a thought. Very nice sword, in any case-
M Eley

Here's mine-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11432

Beautifully done Cap'n Mark!!! I always greatly appreciate the way you bring in salient historical points beyond simple classification or typology. It adds so much dimension to our understanding of the weapon being examined.
Thank you!
Jim

M ELEY · 14th October 2017, 11:38 PM

Thank you, Jim! Don't say that too often or I'll get a big head!

But before I accept my award, I want to make sure that this isn't just another type of Dutch model before I go guessing that it is a prototype or private purchase assemblage. I know of of least two Dutch patterns that have this type hilt. Before the m1790, there was a very similar model pictured in Neumann, #48S, however, it also has the traditional curved blade. The point being, perhaps there IS a straight bladed pattern I'm unfamiliar with? Infantry favored straight bladed hangers of this type, as did naval. So, if it can't be pinned down as that, I would stick to 'private purchase naval', possibly one of a small batch and rather uncommon. A great piece, either way...

Dutch sword experts, any thoughts???

M ELEY · 15th October 2017, 10:46 AM

So far, can't find a straight bladed Dutch saber or hanger of this type with the pattern 1780-90 hilt. Evidence seems to point to my original thought.

Jon MB · 15th October 2017, 12:19 PM

Dear Mark, thank you very much for the research effort.

I had an inkling it might be Dutch. I now hesitate to make suggestions as to identification, as every thing I have posted here has turned out to be something different from what I thought.

I once had a Dutch sabre with a similar brass hilt and projection in the pommel cap, bought in Switzerland, with running-wolf blade snapped in the middle, with a vellum tag attached inscribed, 'Villmergen 1720', or something similar.

Dmitry · 15th October 2017, 03:04 PM

Why would it be naval?! Because you want it to be?

Jon MB · 15th October 2017, 03:22 PM

Could be...and I saw something vaguely similar, described as French Naval. I'll re-check.

You spotted 'Dutch' first, many thanks.

M ELEY · 16th October 2017, 05:44 AM

Why would it be naval?! Because you want it to be? -Dmitry

But of course, my friend, of course!

Still could be infantry. I was guessing naval because hilt is a known marine pattern and straight blades were popular with naval and finally because it appears to be a 'one off', something you wouldn't see in any other service at that time (army, artillery, infantry had their specific models/patterns) except private purchase. Boarders Away addressed these types and had some great ones illustrated...

Jon MB · 17th October 2017, 01:00 PM

Gentlemen, many thanks for these useful pointers.

6th October 2017, 04:26 PM	#1
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Napoleonic? Hangar type grip, Straight blade Hello All, Hope we are having a good day. What do we think of this? French/Continental? Naval? Circa 1780? Straight blade, 81 cm -Blade older than grips? Basket hilt, one branch period removed. Fishskin grips, remains of binding wire. All comments welcomed. Many thanks Attached Images

14th October 2017, 05:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Dmitry is right. The hilt is definitely Dutch, m1790 marinesabal pattern, but with a straight blade??? The Dutch marine swords usually have a curved blade, but the classic bird head grip, fish skin, raised capstan with offset screw securing the knucklebow is spot on for this model/pattern. It appears as if one of the hilt bars has been removed? Interestingly enough, the late (great!) George Gilkerson surmised (along with other naval experts) in 'Boarders Away' that the m1790 pattern was exported to the United States during the 1790's to supply the newly formed U.S. marine corps. Evidence pointing to this distinct possibility is that the m1790 Dutch sabers used on the continent were all extensively marked with regimental marks, battalion marks, proofs, etc. whereas the ones shipped out bore no markings. If we follow this logic, this could have been an export/prototype straight bladed naval saber/hanger for private purchase use. Just a thought. Very nice sword, in any case- M Eley Here's mine- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11432 Last edited by M ELEY; 14th October 2017 at 05:40 AM.

14th October 2017, 03:37 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Probably Dutch.

14th October 2017, 11:16 AM	#4
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Gentlemen, thank you for comments and further information, nice to see other examples.

14th October 2017, 11:38 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Thank you, Jim! Don't say that too often or I'll get a big head! But before I accept my award, I want to make sure that this isn't just another type of Dutch model before I go guessing that it is a prototype or private purchase assemblage. I know of of least two Dutch patterns that have this type hilt. Before the m1790, there was a very similar model pictured in Neumann, #48S, however, it also has the traditional curved blade. The point being, perhaps there IS a straight bladed pattern I'm unfamiliar with? Infantry favored straight bladed hangers of this type, as did naval. So, if it can't be pinned down as that, I would stick to 'private purchase naval', possibly one of a small batch and rather uncommon. A great piece, either way... Dutch sword experts, any thoughts???

15th October 2017, 10:46 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	So far, can't find a straight bladed Dutch saber or hanger of this type with the pattern 1780-90 hilt. Evidence seems to point to my original thought.

15th October 2017, 12:19 PM	#8
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Dear Mark, thank you very much for the research effort. I had an inkling it might be Dutch. I now hesitate to make suggestions as to identification, as every thing I have posted here has turned out to be something different from what I thought. I once had a Dutch sabre with a similar brass hilt and projection in the pommel cap, bought in Switzerland, with running-wolf blade snapped in the middle, with a vellum tag attached inscribed, 'Villmergen 1720', or something similar.

15th October 2017, 03:04 PM	#9
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Why would it be naval?! Because you want it to be?

15th October 2017, 03:22 PM	#10
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Could be...and I saw something vaguely similar, described as French Naval. I'll re-check. You spotted 'Dutch' first, many thanks.

16th October 2017, 05:44 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Why would it be naval?! Because you want it to be? -Dmitry But of course, my friend, of course! Still could be infantry. I was guessing naval because hilt is a known marine pattern and straight blades were popular with naval and finally because it appears to be a 'one off', something you wouldn't see in any other service at that time (army, artillery, infantry had their specific models/patterns) except private purchase. Boarders Away addressed these types and had some great ones illustrated...

17th October 2017, 01:00 PM	#12
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Gentlemen, many thanks for these useful pointers.