Hunting Tigers with Katars: Fact or fiction?

Atlantia · 20th September 2010, 07:54 PM

Can anyone throw any light on this seemingly suicidal practice?
If it did happen, were the odds 'stacked' some other way?

David · 20th September 2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Can anyone throw any light on this seemingly suicidal practice?
If it did happen, were the odds 'stacked' some other way?

Can you cite your reference(s) for this practice?

fernando · 20th September 2010, 08:26 PM

Hi Gene,
I have long heard that katars (jamdhars) were also used in defence against tiger atacks; not that they were an active tiger hunting weapon.

Atlantia · 20th September 2010, 09:14 PM

Really? I've always thought that was the 'legend' of Katars....
Off to google it! lol

Edit:
well, there are lots of pages thrown up in a search, good old never wrong

wiki says:
As the weapon spread throughout India it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris. Among the Rajputs and Mughals, princes and nobles were often portrayed wearing a katara at their side. This was not only a precaution for self-defense, but it was also meant to show their wealth and position. Upper-class Mughals would even hunt tigers with katara. For a hunter to kill a tiger with such a short-range weapon was considered the surest sign of bravery and martial skill.

David · 20th September 2010, 09:22 PM

Well, if Wiki says so....

Lew · 20th September 2010, 09:22 PM

For a hunter to kill a tiger with such a short-range weapon was considered the surest sign of bravery and martial skill.

There is a fine line between brave and just plain stupid.

laEspadaAncha · 20th September 2010, 09:25 PM

I've heard/read of this practice as well, though do not know from where these tales originate.

There are plenty of documented stories of men engaging large predators with nothing but a blade... just a couple years back, a Canadian man fought and killed a mother grizzly with a knife. So theoretically, while it may be considered certifiably stupid, I don't see why there could not be some truth to these stories.

A tiger is a big, big cat. Maybe once a nobleman's team of coolies had encountered and engaged one - or even significantly wounded one - he could/would attempt to finish the job, katars in hand.

Atlantia · 20th September 2010, 09:25 PM

LOL, yeah I know, but I've heard it elsewhere

Norman McCormick · 20th September 2010, 09:39 PM

A Katar!! surely not the weapon of choice for engaging any kind of pussy no matter how big?

fernando · 20th September 2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

... Maybe once a nobleman's team of coolies had encountered and engaged one - or even significantly wounded one - he could/would attempt to finish the job, katars in hand.

Yes, more likely and certainly more frequent, when it comes to true stories.
The important thing is to bring the trophy back and hang its head on the wall, showing it off to the ball guests.

Atlantia · 20th September 2010, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes, more likely and certainly more frequent, when it comes to true stories.
The important thing is to bring the trophy back and hang its head on the wall, showing it off to the ball guests.

That was my original question Nando: IF this did happen, were the odds stacked some other way?

Personally I can't image taking on a Tiger with even a pair of Katars unless my life depended on it! Which of course it would if you did! lol

Lew · 20th September 2010, 10:20 PM

"Hey you with the little knife come and get me"

fernando · 20th September 2010, 11:32 PM

I confess Gene, that i wasn't familiar with the 'odd stack' term

.
Well, i can't realize a guy go out hunting tigers with only a couple katars, but i can understand that, having nothing more practical at hand, he would 'parry' a tiger jump with one of such things.
One thing we can't deny is that, the way katars are built and hand held, is both ideal for pushing a blow against your standing foe as also for stopping (or trying to stop) the landing of an animal jump ... a tiger in te context.
But back to the odds, is all a question of size; the size of the tiger, the size of the katar, the size of the coolies team and, last but not least, the size of the nobleman's 'jewels'

.

Lew · 20th September 2010, 11:52 PM

i can't realize a guy go out hunting tigers with only a couple katars, but i can understand that, having nothing more practical at hand, he would 'parry' a tiger jump with one of such things.

Fernando

I don't know if you can parry a 500-700 pound tiger hitting you at 35mph with a couple of katars. Even if you were on the ground face up with the katars pointing up and the tiger jumped right onto them the force would probably break both your arms. Most hunting swords and daggers were often used to dispatch an already seriosly wounded animal. In the USA wild hog hunters kill the hog with a large dagger but only after the dogs have pinned him down.

Sorry but you would need a awfully long katar to reach this tiger in the picture.

fernando · 21st September 2010, 12:07 AM

The drawing hasn't been finished, yet

.
The author still has to include the nobleman, who will be close to the tiger

.

spiral · 21st September 2010, 12:44 AM

Legend has it to test bravery some Gurkha warriers would hunt a tiger with a kukri to proove thier bravery.

I understand many Mahrarajas of martial races {As the Brits called them.}put a lot of store in physical bravery as well?

Excerpt from Hunting Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century: By Howard L. Blackmore But originaly copied from Reverend Woods 19th century classic, "Travels in India and Nepal” by the Reverend Wood in 1896.

He also described the Gurkhas as "Brave as lions, active as monkeys, and fierce as tigers" Something not very many people aspire to today perhaps?

Spiral

fearn · 21st September 2010, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Legend has it to test bravery some Gurkha warriers would hunt a tiger with a kukri to proove thier bravery.

I understand many Mahrarajas of martial races {As the Brits called them.}put a lot of store in physical bravery as well?

Excerpt from Hunting Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century: By Howard L. Blackmore But originaly copied from Reverend Woods 19th century classic, "Travels in India and Nepal” by the Reverend Wood in 1896.

He also described the Gurkhas as "Brave as lions, active as monkeys, and fierce as tigers" Something not very many people aspire to today perhaps?

Spiral

Gotta love that picture, slashing with the back of the kukri...

Believable...? Not so much. It's that part about getting out of the way that strikes me as hard to do. See for example this YouTube Video, starting at 2:05.

I'm sure that if you were perfectly prepared, you could get one chop in, but not the easiest thing in the world. Note that I'm NOT questioning Gurkha bravery. Just their success rate, especially if they're going for the paw and not the head.

Then again, with tigers on the endangered species list, I think that it will be a few generations before anyone legally hunts a tiger with a kukri or with a katar. The world needs more tigers, anyway. Keeps men heroic.

Best,

F

David · 21st September 2010, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Gotta love that picture, slashing with the back of the kukri...

I don't think so Fearn. The kukri hooks inward on the bladed side. I believe the slashing direction is in a roundhouse motion towards the tiger. He is indeed giving the tiger the edge side in this illustration.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't think so Fearn. The kukri hooks inward on the bladed side. I believe the slashing direction is in a roundhouse motion towards the tiger. He is indeed giving the tiger the edge side in this illustration.

If he's chopping, he's got his hand behind his shoulder and he's swinging forward. As the blade connects, he could dislocate his shoulder. Moreover, his elbow is facing backward and straight, so if he's swinging, it's from the shoulder and waist alone. This is one where it's a good idea to try this with a stick against a wall. Do be careful, because if you put force into it, it's going to hurt.

F

F

bhushan_lawate · 21st September 2010, 06:09 AM

Hi,

I guess we should take these as stray instances which went on to become legends. I do not believe this could have existed as a common practice.

Though I'm aware of a couple of instances and have also had a rare privilege of meeting a man (sadly now no more) who had killed a leopard with a sickle.

He was 95 when I met him a few years back in the jungles of Western Ghats.

However, these will be one off cases when people in self defense used what ever was available.

Regards,
Bhushan

David · 21st September 2010, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

If he's chopping, he's got his hand behind his shoulder and he's swinging forward. As the blade connects, he could dislocate his shoulder. Moreover, his elbow is facing backward and straight, so if he's swinging, it's from the shoulder and waist alone. This is one where it's a good idea to try this with a stick against a wall. Do be careful, because if you put force into it, it's going to hurt.

It's just a drawing Fearn, i was merely pointing out that the swing is indeed moving foward with the blade edge towards the tiger. The physics and dynamics of whether or not this would be a successful cut on the Gurkha's part is not really at issue for me. I also don't think that the illustration's martial accuracy can be used as a basis to dismiss the stories of the practice all together. The artist might not have much knowledge of the proper arm position necessary to make the most effective cut on the tiger and in all probability wasn't even at the event if it actually occurred. It was most probably related to him later and he merely illustrated it. If he was on the scene it would have happened so fast (as that amazing video illustrated) that he wouldn't have accurately seen what happened anyway.

VANDOO · 21st September 2010, 06:10 PM

A FEW PICTURES JUST FOR PERSPECTIVE. A 6 FOOT MAN WITH ODIN AND ODIN SWIMMING YEP TIGERS LIKE TO SWIM UNLIKE THEIR SMALLER KIN THE HOUSE CAT. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT.
PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 06:23 PM

Love it Vandoo!

I'm commenting particularly on the Victorian picture, where the dynamics are all wrong. As I said, go try it out (either with a kukri or without) and see how well you can cut by following that picture. I already watched someone dislocate his shoulder trying to swing his arm that way against pressure, and I don't need to be convinced.

As for killing tigers, I'm glad Vandoo posted those pictures to give an idea of the scale of a real tiger, and that YouTube video gives a pretty good idea of how fast they pounce and from how far away. Cuddly they aren't, but they are magnificent animals.

Best,

F

fernando · 21st September 2010, 06:31 PM

It seems as the house cat picture falls off both perspective and topic

.

VANDOO · 21st September 2010, 07:05 PM

THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL.

A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL.

A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

You noticed!

F's cat (don't tell him)

fernando · 21st September 2010, 07:43 PM

Hi Barry,
I find that amazing

.
I am about the same age as you and i find no conflict in growing humor together with an increasing sense of correctness

.
But naturaly i admit this is a subjective conviction, as also could be different people's perspective of sense of humor ... or fun

.
Meaning we don't all necessarily laugh at the same things ... not meaning we don't all like to laugh

.
Yours humbly

.

Atlantia · 21st September 2010, 07:55 PM

The one thing that really puzzles me about this, are the tactics involved.
Now I have huge and abiding respect for both the Nepalese and Indian martial traditions and I believe that both cultures produce Warriors of the highest bravery and skill.
That said......
Even with a large Kuk, I can't see even the most skilled warrior having more than a poor chance of taking off a paw on the first attack.
Cats are kinda famous for their reflexes, and a tiger has two dinner plate sized paws and a huge mouth full of teeth! Thats a big spread of potential death flying at you.

David · 21st September 2010, 08:09 PM

I cannot either confirm or deny these stories as i have no hard facts either way. I would, however, like to point out that for the most part we are all using our own cultural logic to make assumptions about a culture which is quite outside our own reality. The British referred to the Gurkhas as a "Martial Race". Their customs and actions were all based around this and their bravery was renown the world over. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw once said about Gurkhas: "If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha." So i don't think we can base the possible practices and actions of these people on what we in our own culture might liken to insane or unnecessarily stupid actions. The answer to this question must come from actual reportage. We cannot overlay our own cultural mores and practices on what may have been done by a culture that is completely foreign to us.

fernando · 21st September 2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

... WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT.
PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG.

Mostly true,
Still we have to consider that the sense of survival and all those values weren't so extreme a few centuries ago.
Leaders used to go into battle in front of their troops and only 'the other day' they started positioning themselves in the back stage.
You take Rajputs, the originators of the katar; for them, war was almost a sport. In the 1490's Rana Kombah sent his son Prithi Raj put down a rebellion started by the Rana's brother Soorajmal. During battle, at the end of the day, uncle and nephew camped in sight of each other, the nephew visiting his uncle's tent, asking him for his wounds, and eating dinner off the same platter. When leaving the tent,the nephew assured his uncle that they would finish their battle in the morning and the uncle recomended him to be early on the field.
I wouldn't be surprised if guys with such life disdain would engage a fight with a tiger bearing only blades ... if circumstances arose.
Ah, by the way, Prithi Raj won the battle.

20th September 2010, 07:54 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hunting Tigers with Katars: Fact or fiction? Can anyone throw any light on this seemingly suicidal practice? If it did happen, were the odds 'stacked' some other way?

20th September 2010, 10:20 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	"Hey you with the little knife come and get me" Attached Images

20th September 2010, 11:52 PM	#14
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	i can't realize a guy go out hunting tigers with only a couple katars, but i can understand that, having nothing more practical at hand, he would 'parry' a tiger jump with one of such things. Fernando I don't know if you can parry a 500-700 pound tiger hitting you at 35mph with a couple of katars. Even if you were on the ground face up with the katars pointing up and the tiger jumped right onto them the force would probably break both your arms. Most hunting swords and daggers were often used to dispatch an already seriosly wounded animal. In the USA wild hog hunters kill the hog with a large dagger but only after the dogs have pinned him down. Sorry but you would need a awfully long katar to reach this tiger in the picture. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 21st September 2010 at 12:05 AM.

21st September 2010, 12:44 AM	#16
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Legend has it to test bravery some Gurkha warriers would hunt a tiger with a kukri to proove thier bravery. I understand many Mahrarajas of martial races {As the Brits called them.}put a lot of store in physical bravery as well? Excerpt from Hunting Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century: By Howard L. Blackmore But originaly copied from Reverend Woods 19th century classic, "Travels in India and Nepal” by the Reverend Wood in 1896. He also described the Gurkhas as "Brave as lions, active as monkeys, and fierce as tigers" Something not very many people aspire to today perhaps? Spiral Attached Images

21st September 2010, 06:10 PM	#22
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW PICTURES JUST FOR PERSPECTIVE. A 6 FOOT MAN WITH ODIN AND ODIN SWIMMING YEP TIGERS LIKE TO SWIM UNLIKE THEIR SMALLER KIN THE HOUSE CAT. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT. PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG. Attached Images

20th September 2010, 08:26 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gene, I have long heard that katars (jamdhars) were also used in defence against tiger atacks; not that they were an active tiger hunting weapon.

20th September 2010, 09:14 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Really? I've always thought that was the 'legend' of Katars.... Off to google it! lol Edit: well, there are lots of pages thrown up in a search, good old never wrong wiki says: As the weapon spread throughout India it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris. Among the Rajputs and Mughals, princes and nobles were often portrayed wearing a katara at their side. This was not only a precaution for self-defense, but it was also meant to show their wealth and position. Upper-class Mughals would even hunt tigers with katara. For a hunter to kill a tiger with such a short-range weapon was considered the surest sign of bravery and martial skill.

20th September 2010, 09:22 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Well, if Wiki says so....

20th September 2010, 09:25 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I've heard/read of this practice as well, though do not know from where these tales originate. There are plenty of documented stories of men engaging large predators with nothing but a blade... just a couple years back, a Canadian man fought and killed a mother grizzly with a knife. So theoretically, while it may be considered certifiably stupid, I don't see why there could not be some truth to these stories. A tiger is a big, big cat. Maybe once a nobleman's team of coolies had encountered and engaged one - or even significantly wounded one - he could/would attempt to finish the job, katars in hand.

20th September 2010, 09:39 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	A Katar!! surely not the weapon of choice for engaging any kind of pussy no matter how big?

20th September 2010, 11:32 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I confess Gene, that i wasn't familiar with the 'odd stack' term . Well, i can't realize a guy go out hunting tigers with only a couple katars, but i can understand that, having nothing more practical at hand, he would 'parry' a tiger jump with one of such things. One thing we can't deny is that, the way katars are built and hand held, is both ideal for pushing a blow against your standing foe as also for stopping (or trying to stop) the landing of an animal jump ... a tiger in te context. But back to the odds, is all a question of size; the size of the tiger, the size of the katar, the size of the coolies team and, last but not least, the size of the nobleman's 'jewels' .

21st September 2010, 12:07 AM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The drawing hasn't been finished, yet . The author still has to include the nobleman, who will be close to the tiger .

21st September 2010, 06:09 AM	#20
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, I guess we should take these as stray instances which went on to become legends. I do not believe this could have existed as a common practice. Though I'm aware of a couple of instances and have also had a rare privilege of meeting a man (sadly now no more) who had killed a leopard with a sickle. He was 95 when I met him a few years back in the jungles of Western Ghats. However, these will be one off cases when people in self defense used what ever was available. Regards, Bhushan

21st September 2010, 06:23 PM	#23
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Love it Vandoo! I'm commenting particularly on the Victorian picture, where the dynamics are all wrong. As I said, go try it out (either with a kukri or without) and see how well you can cut by following that picture. I already watched someone dislocate his shoulder trying to swing his arm that way against pressure, and I don't need to be convinced. As for killing tigers, I'm glad Vandoo posted those pictures to give an idea of the scale of a real tiger, and that YouTube video gives a pretty good idea of how fast they pounce and from how far away. Cuddly they aren't, but they are magnificent animals. Best, F

21st September 2010, 06:31 PM	#24
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It seems as the house cat picture falls off both perspective and topic .

21st September 2010, 07:05 PM	#25
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL. A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME. BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

21st September 2010, 07:43 PM	#27
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Barry, I find that amazing . I am about the same age as you and i find no conflict in growing humor together with an increasing sense of correctness . But naturaly i admit this is a subjective conviction, as also could be different people's perspective of sense of humor ... or fun . Meaning we don't all necessarily laugh at the same things ... not meaning we don't all like to laugh . Yours humbly .

21st September 2010, 07:55 PM	#28
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The one thing that really puzzles me about this, are the tactics involved. Now I have huge and abiding respect for both the Nepalese and Indian martial traditions and I believe that both cultures produce Warriors of the highest bravery and skill. That said...... Even with a large Kuk, I can't see even the most skilled warrior having more than a poor chance of taking off a paw on the first attack. Cats are kinda famous for their reflexes, and a tiger has two dinner plate sized paws and a huge mouth full of teeth! Thats a big spread of potential death flying at you.

21st September 2010, 08:09 PM	#29
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	I cannot either confirm or deny these stories as i have no hard facts either way. I would, however, like to point out that for the most part we are all using our own cultural logic to make assumptions about a culture which is quite outside our own reality. The British referred to the Gurkhas as a "Martial Race". Their customs and actions were all based around this and their bravery was renown the world over. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw once said about Gurkhas: "If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha." So i don't think we can base the possible practices and actions of these people on what we in our own culture might liken to insane or unnecessarily stupid actions. The answer to this question must come from actual reportage. We cannot overlay our own cultural mores and practices on what may have been done by a culture that is completely foreign to us.