Indonesian ? spear for I.D. and comment

colin henshaw · 2nd June 2011, 07:00 PM

Hi

I've had this long spear for a while, and wonder if someone is able to identify it for me. I have thought of it as probably Indonesian, Batak ?

The shaft is very straight and regular - would it have been made on some sort of lathe, or all carved by hand ?

Thanks.

Gavin Nugent · 3rd June 2011, 01:48 AM

A very fine looking piece.

The shaft is hand made no doubt, a lathe of this size would be troubsome to say the least, flex and flop would be out of control even with numberous support rollers along the bed of the lathe and I am unsure if the technology was available for this type of construction in the day.

I look forward to hearing more on the origins as I am afraid I can't be too exact....if you do ever grow tired of it, please do let me know, it would look great amonst my other lances

Nathaniel · 3rd June 2011, 03:52 AM

Beautiful spear there Colin! Thanks for share! Looking forward to hearing what others have to say

Henk · 3rd June 2011, 10:06 AM

Very nice. Congrats. I would say Sumatra, Aceh.

asomotif · 3rd June 2011, 08:12 PM

Could be Sumatra, not necessarily Atjeh imho.

Maurice · 3rd June 2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Could be Sumatra, not necessarily Atjeh imho.

Agree that it could be Sumatra but I don't think this is Atjeh!

Very nice spear though!

fernando · 3rd June 2011, 08:55 PM

A very fine piece indeed, Colin !
I would even call it an elegant weapon

.

asomotif · 3rd June 2011, 09:23 PM

The silverwork is really nice.

Here is a thread for reference started by Danny.
Detelf posts an example with a similir spearhead :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ombak+javanese

Henk · 3rd June 2011, 10:02 PM

You got some response now Colin. I used the book by Zonneveld. That gives Sumatra, Aceh, for this kind of spears. Well, Aceh or not, probably Sumatra, but a very fine piece.

Maurice · 3rd June 2011, 10:15 PM

As I noticed with some research I did recently on Danny's spears, I found out it's very difficult to nail down the origine of this kind of spears.
I'm almost sure that Danny's lances are Gayo/Atjeh lances.
Though this lancehead seem to be a little different in shape as the Atjeh/Gayo ones.

But that's just my feeling...

Lovely spear :-)

colin henshaw · 3rd June 2011, 10:26 PM

Many thanks for the kind and informative comments and responses about this spear.

Regards,
Colin

Maurice · 4th June 2011, 01:13 AM

Colin,

The carvings in the wooden shaft: Are they all circular rings?
Or are there also some in other form? (can you post an image of the other shapes if there are?)

Thanks,
Maurice

colin henshaw · 5th June 2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Colin,

The carvings in the wooden shaft: Are they all circular rings?
Or are there also some in other form? (can you post an image of the other shapes if there are?)

Thanks,
Maurice

Hi Maurice

The carvings on the shaft are just circular rings, here is a close-up image.

Regards.

fernando · 5th June 2011, 02:22 PM

Hand made rings ... right?

colin henshaw · 5th June 2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hand made rings ... right?

I have examined the rings carefully, and although they are quite regular, I think they have been cut by hand, as opposed to by any type of lathe.

Maurice · 5th June 2011, 09:12 PM

Thank you Colin for the image of the wooden shaft.

I looked around here and there if I was able to find a similar lance.
But unfortunately I didn't!

But I vote for Borneo!

Not quite dayak, but in some area of Borneo where also Malay or Indonesian people or other outlandish people were wandering around...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

colin henshaw · 8th June 2011, 03:49 PM

Hi Maurice,

Interesting viewpoint on the origin of this spear. Now you mention it...the profile of the steel blade is quite like those to be often found lashed to the tip of Dayak blowpipes.

Do you have any references/illustrations you can post ?

Best regards
Colin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Thank you Colin for the image of the wooden shaft.

I looked around here and there if I was able to find a similar lance.
But unfortunately I didn't!

But I vote for Borneo!

Not quite dayak, but in some area of Borneo where also Malay or Indonesian people or other outlandish people were wandering around...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Maurice · 8th June 2011, 07:56 PM

That's indeed what I was insinuating, but also some spearheads from Borneo have this shape (not only the blowpipes)...
Also I've seen silver ferrules on spears with provenance from Borneo, and also I've seen such decoration on a wooden shaft of Borneo spears before.
But I could be mistaken ofcourse. But for me it feels like it has some Borneo features...

Is the part where the spearhead is entering the ferrule (accented yellow) as flat as the blade itself?
On the dayak lances and blowpipes I've had in the past and still have, this part was also flat as the whole tang, which is attached on the wooden shaft with braided ratan...(see examples).

Henk · 8th June 2011, 10:02 PM

Maurice,

I hate to admit it but you could be very right that this is a Borneo spear. Just checked my sumpitam and spear from Borneo. The spearblades have more or less the same profile. The silver ferrule gave me by the book by Zonneveld the conclusion Aceh. Now I go for Borneo as well.
Detail on my spear is that the blade is mounted as a sumpitamblade.

colin henshaw · 19th June 2011, 04:41 PM

Hi Maurice

Apologies for the late reply. Yes, this part is of much the same profile as the blade. Here is an image.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

That's indeed what I was insinuating, but also some spearheads from Borneo have this shape (not only the blowpipes)...
Also I've seen silver ferrules on spears with provenance from Borneo, and also I've seen such decoration on a wooden shaft of Borneo spears before.
But I could be mistaken ofcourse. But for me it feels like it has some Borneo features...

Is the part where the spearhead is entering the ferrule (accented yellow) as flat as the blade itself?
On the dayak lances and blowpipes I've had in the past and still have, this part was also flat as the whole tang, which is attached on the wooden shaft with braided ratan...(see examples).

Maurice · 19th June 2011, 06:37 PM

Thanks for the image Colin.
Always different these spears to nail down the origin.

But I like to research them and "try" to find out more about them.
Thanks Henk, glad I've got you at my side now! :-)

Still vote for Borneo!

asomotif · 19th June 2011, 07:36 PM

Borneo ?

Hmm... I not yet convinced

Would love to see the full tang, but if it is firmly fixed please let it be.

asomotif · 19th June 2011, 11:47 PM

Here are 2 examples from the "Wereldmuseum" collection described as Sulawesi.
Unfortunately they have only one picture of the objects. I wonder what type of blade the one with the silver ferrule would have

asomotif · 19th June 2011, 11:56 PM

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory.

Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.

Sajen · 20th June 2011, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory.

Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.

Hi Willem,

well done research. The affinity of the ferrules is amazing.

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 20th June 2011, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. 2 examples next to each other.

BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory.

Borneo is possible.
But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago.

Yes almost identical:-)
But as I said before it isn't dajak!
Also I've seen lances with provenance from Borneo, with silver ferrules ornamented like these....
But what's make me saying that Collin's lance could be Borneo is because of the iron blade and the wooden shaft.
I've seen Borneo spears with identical carved circles in the wooden shaft as Colin's.....

I like these kind of puzzles....

Maurice

asomotif · 3rd November 2012, 11:07 PM

I recently bought a borneo spear.

Slightly different metal decoration and unfortunately not silver.
The spearhead is layered forging. probably imported from Java.

The shaft is dark hard wood of the quality we see in blowpipes.
It has a simple decoration on the shaft.

Nice for comparrison.

Best regards,
Willem

Battara · 4th November 2012, 06:24 AM

I know that the blade is Javanese, but I also thought the brass sleeve was also Javanese style as well?

Nice piece in any case........

Maurice · 4th November 2012, 03:53 PM

Nice spear Willem.

Any provenance?

colin henshaw · 4th November 2012, 05:16 PM

A fine spear, similar sleeve to mine but different type of blade. Is the sleeve of brass not silver ?

Regards.

2nd June 2011, 07:00 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Indonesian ? spear for I.D. and comment Hi I've had this long spear for a while, and wonder if someone is able to identify it for me. I have thought of it as probably Indonesian, Batak ? The shaft is very straight and regular - would it have been made on some sort of lathe, or all carved by hand ? Thanks. Attached Images

3rd June 2011, 01:48 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	very fine A very fine looking piece. The shaft is hand made no doubt, a lathe of this size would be troubsome to say the least, flex and flop would be out of control even with numberous support rollers along the bed of the lathe and I am unsure if the technology was available for this type of construction in the day. I look forward to hearing more on the origins as I am afraid I can't be too exact....if you do ever grow tired of it, please do let me know, it would look great amonst my other lances

4th June 2011, 01:13 AM	#12
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Colin, The carvings in the wooden shaft: Are they all circular rings? Or are there also some in other form? (can you post an image of the other shapes if there are?) Thanks, Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 4th June 2011 at 07:37 AM.

5th June 2011, 09:12 PM	#16
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Thank you Colin for the image of the wooden shaft. I looked around here and there if I was able to find a similar lance. But unfortunately I didn't! But I vote for Borneo! Not quite dayak, but in some area of Borneo where also Malay or Indonesian people or other outlandish people were wandering around... Kind Regards, Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 5th June 2011 at 09:56 PM.

8th June 2011, 07:56 PM	#18
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	That's indeed what I was insinuating, but also some spearheads from Borneo have this shape (not only the blowpipes)... Also I've seen silver ferrules on spears with provenance from Borneo, and also I've seen such decoration on a wooden shaft of Borneo spears before. But I could be mistaken ofcourse. But for me it feels like it has some Borneo features... Is the part where the spearhead is entering the ferrule (accented yellow) as flat as the blade itself? On the dayak lances and blowpipes I've had in the past and still have, this part was also flat as the whole tang, which is attached on the wooden shaft with braided ratan...(see examples). Attached Images

3rd June 2011, 03:52 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Beautiful spear there Colin! Thanks for share! Looking forward to hearing what others have to say

3rd June 2011, 10:06 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Very nice. Congrats. I would say Sumatra, Aceh.

3rd June 2011, 08:12 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Could be Sumatra, not necessarily Atjeh imho.

3rd June 2011, 08:55 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A very fine piece indeed, Colin ! I would even call it an elegant weapon .

3rd June 2011, 09:23 PM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	The silverwork is really nice. Here is a thread for reference started by Danny. Detelf posts an example with a similir spearhead : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ombak+javanese

3rd June 2011, 10:02 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	You got some response now Colin. I used the book by Zonneveld. That gives Sumatra, Aceh, for this kind of spears. Well, Aceh or not, probably Sumatra, but a very fine piece.

3rd June 2011, 10:15 PM	#10
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	As I noticed with some research I did recently on Danny's spears, I found out it's very difficult to nail down the origine of this kind of spears. I'm almost sure that Danny's lances are Gayo/Atjeh lances. Though this lancehead seem to be a little different in shape as the Atjeh/Gayo ones. But that's just my feeling... Lovely spear :-)

3rd June 2011, 10:26 PM	#11
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks for the kind and informative comments and responses about this spear. Regards, Colin

5th June 2011, 02:22 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hand made rings ... right?

8th June 2011, 10:02 PM	#19
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Maurice, I hate to admit it but you could be very right that this is a Borneo spear. Just checked my sumpitam and spear from Borneo. The spearblades have more or less the same profile. The silver ferrule gave me by the book by Zonneveld the conclusion Aceh. Now I go for Borneo as well. Detail on my spear is that the blade is mounted as a sumpitamblade.

19th June 2011, 06:37 PM	#21
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Thanks for the image Colin. Always different these spears to nail down the origin. But I like to research them and "try" to find out more about them. Thanks Henk, glad I've got you at my side now! :-) Still vote for Borneo!

19th June 2011, 07:36 PM	#22
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Borneo ? Hmm... I not yet convinced Would love to see the full tang, but if it is firmly fixed please let it be.

19th June 2011, 11:47 PM	#23
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Here are 2 examples from the "Wereldmuseum" collection described as Sulawesi. Unfortunately they have only one picture of the objects. I wonder what type of blade the one with the silver ferrule would have Attached Images

19th June 2011, 11:56 PM	#24
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Ps. 2 examples next to each other. BTW, Maurice. This is not to undermine your Borneo theory. Borneo is possible. But especially this silver work can be found throughout the Archipelago. Attached Images

3rd November 2012, 11:07 PM	#27
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I recently bought a borneo spear. Slightly different metal decoration and unfortunately not silver. The spearhead is layered forging. probably imported from Java. The shaft is dark hard wood of the quality we see in blowpipes. It has a simple decoration on the shaft. Nice for comparrison. Best regards, Willem Attached Images

4th November 2012, 06:24 AM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I know that the blade is Javanese, but I also thought the brass sleeve was also Javanese style as well? Nice piece in any case........

4th November 2012, 03:53 PM	#29
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,349	Nice spear Willem. Any provenance?

4th November 2012, 05:16 PM	#30
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	A fine spear, similar sleeve to mine but different type of blade. Is the sleeve of brass not silver ? Regards.