Interesting Spanish Canary Islands Punal

[Atlantia]

Here is a rather sweet little knife.
Have a good look at the handle as there are little thin disks of white (now dark grey) metal which are made to be slightly larger so they stick out about 1mm. I assume that this can only be to provide grip and as the handle is already a shape that gives a good grip?
But I found myself wondering about it.
Which reminded me of the early smooth handled FS Commando knives and the problems of them becomming slippery and the soldiers being unable to pull them out due to a combination of blood on the handle and wound suction. Which resulted in the later ones having the ridged handles.
Could we be seeing a similar design feature here?

[Chris Evans]

Hi Atlantia,


It is a Canary Islands `Naife', a corruption of the English word `Knife'.

These links are in Spanish but can be translated with something like Babel


http://www.terra.es/personal8/jlmmor...s-canarios.htm

And

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/933156/5569293-naifes/

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Atlantia,


It is a Canary Islands `Naife', a corruption of the English word `Knife'.

These links are in Spanish but can be translated with something like Babel


http://www.terra.es/personal8/jlmmor...s-canarios.htm

And

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/933156/5569293-naifes/

Cheers
Chris

G'day Chris
Isn't punal the generic term for these? Not that 'me Espaniole' is very good, but it's 'dagger' isn't it? I mean, why do some call these knife and others dagger, is ther a theory that they are not 'offensive' in purpose?
What are your thoughts on the ridges?
Regards
gene

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

G'day Chris
Isn't punal the generic term for these? Not that 'me Espaniole' is very good, but it's 'dagger' isn't it?
What are your thoughts on the ridges?
Regards
gene

The Argentineans call Criollo (Creole) knives with a similar blade shape `Puñal', with the qualifier that the blade must have a false edge near the tip, not necessarily sharp, otherwise it becomes a mere `Cuchillo' (knife), or if deeply bellied, a `Cuchilla' (feminine gender). `Puño' in Spanish means fist or a clenched hand and generally the term is used to describe an edged knife used mainly for the thrust, held with an "ice pick" grip. How they came to assign this name to what is predominantly a working cutting knife is unknown to me. I should add that the strict usage of these terms is a relatively modern phenomena, introduced by historians and curators, as in the past the mostly illiterate population and even renowned literati, both in the Latin Americas and Spain, named their bladeware very loosely. To this day, the terms `facon', `puñal', `daga', `cuchillo/a' are used interchangeably by most who are not collectors.

From an utilitarian perspective, at least my own, the handle of naifes leave a lot to be desired on account of being round and thus reducing the feel for the edge, but I suppose that one can get use to it. As for purchase, I think that the changing cross section, reaching a maximum diameter near the centre affords a secure grip. I am inclined to believe that the spacers are purely decorative, though no doubt, as the softer ones wear down the harder ones will become more prominent further improving the grip.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gene,




The Argentineans call Criollo (Creole) knives with a similar blade shape `Puñal', with the qualifier that the blade must have a false edge near the tip, not necessarily sharp, otherwise it becomes a mere `Cuchillo' (knife), or if deeply bellied, a `Cuchilla' (feminine gender). `Puño' in Spanish means fist or a clenched hand and generally the term is used to describe an edged knife used mainly for the thrust, held with an "ice pick" grip. How they came to assign this name to what is predominantly a working cutting knife is unknown to me. I should add that the strict usage of these terms is a relatively modern phenomena, introduced by historians and curators, as in the past the mostly illiterate population and even renowned literati, both in the Latin Americas and Spain, named their bladeware very loosely. To this day, the terms `facon', `puñal', `daga', `cuchillo/a' are used interchangeably by most who are not collectors.

From an utilitarian perspective, at least my own, the handle of naifes leave a lot to be desired on account of being round and thus reducing the feel for the edge, but I suppose that one can get use to it. As for purchase, I think that the changing cross section, reaching a maximum diameter near the centre affords a secure grip. I am inclined to believe that the spacers are purely decorative, though no doubt, as the softer ones wear down the harder ones will become more prominent further improving the grip.

Cheers
Chris

I'm happy with either designation to be honest. I think these are a bit of a missed opportunity in the colllecting field as they are rather nice.
I've had a proper Albacete punal for a while and have missed getting a few of these canary 'baby brothers' on ebay I was delighted to find this one at a boot-sale last week.
I completely see why you'd think it was the rest of the handle had worn down but its actually the other way around and the metal spacers are soft but raised. Definately there to afford better grip....Which is why I thought it was worthy of a thread.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm happy with either designation to be honest. I think these are a bit of a missed opportunity in the colllecting field as they are rather nice.
I've had a proper Albacete punal for a while and have missed getting a few of these canary 'baby brothers' on ebay I was delighted to find this one at a boot-sale last week.

I am with you on this one - They are rather eye catching.

I completely see why you'd think it was the rest of the handle had worn down but its actually the other way around and the metal spacers are soft but raised. Definately there to afford better grip....Which is why I thought it was worthy of a thread.

Given that they are hand made, at least used to be, I wonder how they intentionally achieved that effect. I mean, the oversized disks are easy enough, but were the others polished/filed down? Can you see abrasion or wear marks on the spacers in the valleys?

In that second link I gave, you can see how they are made and would appear that they aim for a smooth finish. Of course, being made one at a time they can cater for individual requests and preferences. Judging from the photos, it would seem that a number of the spacers were not abraded down - Just a thought, could it be an unfinished knife?
Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Just a thought, could it be an unfinished knife? ...

I humbly subscribe such reasoning
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Hi Gentlemen,
I must admit I did initially wonder that myself, but the other disks are polished and finished
Also the rest is finished and it has a scabbard.
You dont think this is a crude way of adding grip?
Lol, unfinished wouldn't be a problem they are soft metal disks.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gen,

I have the feeling that this will remain one of those unresolved mysteries.

Are you going to sand the disks down and finish it?

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gen,

I have the feeling that this will remain one of those unresolved mysteries.

Are you going to sand the disks down and finish it?

Cheers
Chris

I'm Undecided Chris!
I can't imagine its not deliberate to have these disks there but they are weird for sure....
hmmm, not a decision I'lll rush

Regards
Gene

[celtan]

Hi,

There are lots of spanish terms for the small armas blancas.
The facon tends to be a larger, more brutish type of field blade.
Cuchillo is a generic term, that can be applied to all, even to cooking/eating utensils.
A daga/dagger suggest a more elaborate affair, more knightly and developed, elegant even, and usually sporting a developed cross guard. They are highly personalized.
A puñal is virtually any fighting blade that can be held in a fist, not refined, its crossguard being either very small or absent.
The navajas and cuchillas (feminine terms) apply only to folding knives, albeit they can be of herculean dimensions.
Me'self, I highly dislike the traditional spanish knives in general. like the Albacetes. Their brute shape seems to infer a decidedly ruffianish nature. OTOH, I find the shape of the old swiss daggers extremely attractive.
I guess that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...: )

Best
Manolo

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm Undecided Chris!
I can't imagine its not deliberate to have these disks there but they are weird for sure....
hmmm, not a decision I'lll rush

Regards
Gene

[celtan]

One of mine FS daggers.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Manolo,

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi,

A puñal is virtually any fighting blade that can be held in a fist, not refined, its crossguard being either very small or absent.

Nicely put, though I would add that such a grip emphasizes the use of the point, so it is not really applicable to a knife primarily intended to cut.

The navajas and cuchillas (feminine terms) apply only to folding knives, albeit they can be of herculean dimensions.

I am not sure about current Spanish colloquialisms (the old ones are largely forgotten or of uncertain meaning due to the vide spread illiteracy that persisted until WWII ) but in South America, a "cuchilla" is applied to any broad fixed blade. But the folks who use them are not all that concerned with correct terminology and cuchillo/cuchilla are often used synonimously.

OTOH, I find the shape of the old swiss daggers extremely attractive. I guess that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...: )

I certainly agree with you on this one. Generally daggers were intended as companion weapons an were often lavishly decorated, but even the simpler ones had a certain gracefulness about them, albeit a deadly one.

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Nicely put, though I would add that such a grip emphasizes the use of the point, so it is not really applicable to a knife primarily intended to cut.

Very true, that what characterizes a puñal. And yet, it is still generally considered a cuchillo, or knife.

I am not sure about current Spanish colloquialisms (the old ones are largely forgotten or of uncertain meaning due to the vide spread illiteracy that persisted until WWII ) but in South America, a "cuchilla" is applied to any broad fixed blade. But the folks who use them are not all that concerned with correct terminology and cuchillo/cuchilla are often used synonimously.

Castillian / Spanish is differently used in America. (Even in Spain itself, the usage varies between regions). In Mexico, often times they call it Mexican instead of Spanish, and it can prove very difficult to understand for a Spanish national, since words and phrases from the local American tribes are often mixed with the former. Sometimes, European Spanish words may actually have the opossite meaning elsewhere.

I certainly agree with you on this one. Generally daggers were intended as companion weapons an were often lavishly decorated, but even the simpler ones had a certain gracefulness about them, albeit a deadly one.

Cheers
Chris

Yep, and they are also easier to exhibit and store, compared to pikes, montantes and fusiles. : )

I must confess a certain predilection gor the fabled main gauches...

: )

Salud y Fortuna

Manolo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Manolo,

Very nice daggers. The one on the left is a fencing one, not sure about the one on the right as it is not clear from the photo, but does it have a ring on the side of the quillon?

Could I trouble you for their weight and blade length and any signs of of the edges having been sharpened?

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

Both have rings. The "prettier" one with the gorgeous multifullered perforated blade, is probably italian or spanish. It has replacement carved black wood (ebony?) hilt and pommel These were probably repaired in the late 18th C. (as per previous advice of Norman, IIRC.)


Right: W 6.1 oz CG 1 cm caudally of crossguard. TL ~12.5" BL 8.25" Multifullered perforated blade.

Left: W 11.3 oz CG at crossguard's table TL 16" BL ~12" Diamond CC blade. Turkheads and helicoidal hilt with wire grip.

No signs evident of having been sharpened.


They took me back about $2K ea. 13 yrs. ago. But I enjoy owning them very much, probably even more than anything else in my collection...



Best regards

Manolo

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Manolo,

Very nice daggers. The one on the left is a fencing one, not sure about the one on the right as it is not clear from the photo, but does it have a ring on the side of the quillon?

Could I trouble you for their weight and blade length and any signs of of the edges having been sharpened?

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Manolo,

Many thanks for those specs - And I am green with envy, they are magnificent.

Cheers
Chris

[celtan]

You are most welcome, and thanks for the kind words!

: )

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Manolo,

Many thanks for those specs - And I am green with envy, they are magnificent.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

OOh whadayaknow, the thread went on and I didn't realise!!


Hi Guys, Hola Manolo,

So, I haven't altered these 'grip disks' yet, still open to the idea if we decide its definately needed.
Below is a picture of my Canary 'Knaife' alongside the rather larger Albacete 'Punal'.

If you have a look at the offical gran-canaria website www.grancanaria.com there is a lovely picture of a pile of these cute little knives and some excellent information on them:

'It is known by its English name, knife, showing that its appearance could be related to the presence of the English in the Canary Islands.

The Canary Islands knife, a fundamental part of the household utensils of the rural dwellers of Gran Canaria, is exclusive to this island, as its production did not take hold in the rest of the islands. The craftsmen who make the knives are involved in the forging and smithy work, although some of them specialise in the making of the handle, leaving the blade for the smiths.

The Canary Island knife makers, unlike knife makers in other parts of Spain who provide society with all the cutting tools necessary in the kitchen or for work, only make one item, known as the Canary Islands knife. These days the knives are usually made for a clientele who use them for decoration, with new designs being produced such as letter-openers, earrings and pendants in order to increase the commercial offer.

The Canary Islands knife is one of the few items of craftwork which fills rural people with pride simply by possessing one. Ownership is maintained over time within the family, as it is passed on from father to son. It is an indispensable work tool in the countryside, as it is used by farmers to cut grass and sticks, for grafting trees and in all the tasks related to banana cropping; shepherds use it to cut agave leaves and as a scalpel when bleeding animals. Neither can it be forgotten that the knife has been used on many occasions as a weapon for defense, and that many men state the “going about without a knife is like going about naked”.

The craft of the knife maker is exclusively masculine. The blades are made by a smith, the handles are mounted by a knife maker and the traditional user was a man. Women never use or even own a Canary Islands knife, even though many of their domestic activities require cutting utensils. The knife, apart from its utilitarian value, acts as a symbol of the masculinity of the one who carries it.

The transmission of the craft is patrilineal and in all cases is strictly masculine. Sons of smiths are the ones who usually tend towards knife making. The techniques require some learning, and are usually very specific and laborious.

The working process is as follows:

The horn is cut into circles of different thickness and diameter, and these are then pierced in the centre to be set into the tang of the knife blade. Everything is held together at the two ends by metal tips. Incisions are made in the circles of horn from different angles, and these are filled with pieces of metal of different colours. The work is finished off by polishing the blade.

The working technique for marquetry, which consists of filling wooden objects with small pieces of precious materials to make geometric shapes and bright colours, is reminiscent of the technique for the making of the handles of the Canary Islands knives.

The main centres where the Canary Islands knives are made are in Guía, Gáldar and Telde.'

[Gonzalo G]

Please let me make some precisions:

1.- In Mexico the spanish is called ´spanish, or instead. ´´castilian´. Which is not an obstacle to some ignorant people, who could call it ´mexican´, though in my life I have only have heard some children using the word is this sense. But it must be stated that ´mexican´, applied to a language, usually means ´meshica´, or nahuatl, which is the language spoken by the old meshican or aztec. Hence the name ´Mexico´, the place of the meshica.

2.- The differences among those weapons or tools, are not a matter of frivolous elitism, or aesthetics, but instead, come from their morphology.

3.- The Dictionary of the Royal Academy of the Language, which is a venerable spanish (and I mean, not mexican) institution which establishes the correct use of the spanish languaje in all the spoken spanish language countries of the world, has very clear definitions about those items.

4.- Puñal: a very short edged weapon designed to wound with the point. The explanations given by Chris are a good addition to this definition.
Daga (dagger): Edged weapon with guards to defend in the fight, with two, three or four edges.
Cuchilla: Tool made with a wide blade of steel, one edged and with a handle (not a folding knife).
Cuchillo (knife): Tool, one edged, used to cut made with a blade and a handle.

As you see, the dagger is glorified because it was a more sophisticated weapon with more capacity for embellisment, but it was used equally by gentleman, low soldiers, ruffians or bandits. The humble cuchilla and cuchillo were more tools than weapons in the hands of workers, and the puñal was a weapon in the hands of ladies or assessins, as the daggers also could be in their moment. The dicionary mentions that the dagger is a short weapon, but it must be compared in relation with the swords, and not in relation with the knives or the puñales, since there are very long dagger main gauche.

I agree completely with Chris in his definitions. The puñal criollo is an exception, and it shouldn´t be properly called ´puñal´.

Chris et al: you can check the Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espñalola online. If needed, use a translator online. I cannot imagine a more higher authority on this matters, though it is not perfect.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Ho Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Please let me make some precisions:

1.- In Mexico the spanish is called ´spanish, or instead. ´´castilian´.

I think that to this day, `Castellano' (English:Castillian) is still the correct term for what commonly passes for the vulgate `Spanish', though most whom I converse with, including MS Word, fail to make this distinction. Decades ago, anyone with a pretence to an education would never say "I speak Spanish", rather than "I speak Castillian" - It would appear to me that this convention is fading.

Just can't help feeling that Franco may have had something to do with the vigorous upholding of `Castillian', to counter the regionalist/secessionist tendencies in Spain, but I add that this is mere guessing on my part

2.- The differences among those weapons or tools, are not a matter of frivolous elitism, or aesthetics, but instead, come from their morphology.

You are spot on and this is beyond dispute.

However, illiteracy in Spain and in South America, was extremely widespread right up to WWII, especially in the rural areas, and this muddies the waters considerably due to the synonymity that was imputed to terms such as for example `Facon' with any knife worn by a gaucho and in a part/s of Spain, if I read Forton correctly, `Faca' was used interchangeably with `Navaja'.

As I pointed out in another thread, languages are dominated by conventions, which lend meanings and nuances to words, that are at times irrational or their derivation is outright incorrect - The "Puñal Criollo" is probably the most obvious example that I can bring to this discussion. And once these conventions have taken hold, it will take a very long time to correct the misuse of certain terms, and often we are stuck with them because of the legacy of historical writings.

And then there is the issue of words lapsing into obsolescence, but refusing to disappear completely, such as the English `Bodkin' or Spanish `Rejon' and `Guifero' (both akin to a bodkin, but some possibly with a cutting edge).

4.- Puñal: a very short edged weapon designed to wound with the point. The explanations given by Chris are a good addition to this definition.
Daga (dagger): Edged weapon with guards to defend in the fight, with two, three or four edges.
Cuchilla: Tool made with a wide blade of steel, one edged and with a handle (not a folding knife).
Cuchillo (knife): Tool, one edged, used to cut made with a blade and a handle.

Nicely put.

.....you can check the Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Espñalola online. If needed, use a translator online. I cannot imagine a more higher authority on this matters, though it is not perfect.

Did a Google for it, but couldn't find a link. Any chance of posting it?

And when was it first compiled?

Cheers
Chris

[Hotspur]

Some knives of Argentina that were posted in regard to distiction between facon and chucillo. These were offered by a fellow in Argentina during an internet discussion entitled Dressed To Kill, refered to for a few years as the D2K debate and an article someone was writing (senior moment). Ah, here is the thread.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72872

I have in my small ethnic collection just one small punal, or chucillo. Mine was manufactured some time in the 20th century and is marked by a company named AE&Co. I have been unable to determine who that actually is but I run across a good many others with the mark and that of a knotted bugle on the blades.

What I was reading in to some of these discussions was that the facon themselves experienced pretty much the end of general carry during the late 19th century and that the small all metal punal/chucillo of the early and alter 20th century were more of an accessory. My example is of the smaller (10" overall) but I have seen some quite large that some might still refer to as a facon, as the size was truer to what was commonplace in the 19th century. However, the rather large blades of the kitchen chef knife profile were more refered to as a clavado. I guess the main determining factor was facon refered to a weapon, where clavado and chucillo were meant more as tools.

Cheers

Hotspur; I failed loading these yesterday but it might work out ok now

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Great post!

The nomenclature associated with gaucho knives will be contentious for ever. The problem is that both the words `gaucho' and `facon' changed constantly from the time they were first used. Worse still, is that we know very little of the halcyon days of the real gauchos, those that lived on the Pampas before 1800. What passes for gaucho history these days pertains to the rapidly changing 19th century Pampas due to commercial cattle grazing, immigration and the mythologization of agricultural workers, in keeping with nationalistic and romantic trends of the mid to late 1800s.

`Gaucho' went from a malingering vagabond, who lived off wild cattle, to a mounted farm labourer and then onto the embodiment of national virtue. And the `facon' from an oversize knife primarily used to hunt and slaughter wild cattle to a weapon (when the wild cattle disappeared) and then a national icon symbolizing masculinity and the warrior spirit. In popular parlance to this day, any reasonably sized knife worn at the small of the back by an Argentinean horseman (gaucho?) is a facon, though my the mid 19th century a facon was seen as a weapon and the `cuchillo' (knife) as a tool. Here, it is worth remembering that `facon' literally means large knife, even though by popular convention it acquired other nuances and meanings. It is also worth remembering that the wild cattle of the Pampas was in severe decline by the early 19th century and with it the life style of the original gauchos - What cattle was left, was fiercely competed for by the rapidly increasing native Indian population; So the gaucho was compelled to become a mounted hired hand, or a soldier for a local warlord and later, the national army.

Collectors and edged weapon historians needed something more precise than and hence the more definitive names associated with gaucho blade ware used nowadays. For unambiguous discussions it is better to stick to the terms favoured by Osornio and later Domenech.

Re Swordforums: That was an interesting thread and Leonardo made many valid points. Unfortunately, English is not his first language and he had difficulty in articulating himself against hostile interlocutors who greatly misunderstood him.

This is now drifting OT, and perhaps we ought to start a new thread on gaucho knives and Pampean culture, if one is needed. I was merely enlarging on Gonzalo's excellent post regarding blade terminology is Spanish (Castillian!) and mentioned facons etc by way of examples.

Cheers
Chris
PS please post a picture of the brand on you knife and perhaps we can help to identify its origins.

[Hotspur]

Here is a picture that appears on the clasp of these. Just A&E Co. over the twisted/knotted bugle. As mentioned, I have come across quite similar ones. The blade is also labeled INOX, so we can presume they are not earlier than the beginning of the 20th century.

Cheers

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Assuming that the `inox' blade was originally fitted to the furniture, than I doubt if that knife pre-dates the 1960s, but am not entirely sure.

My reference books only address earlier, locally mounted ware.

Up to WWII, trade blades were imported and locally mounted - Then, due to the shortage created by the hostilities, blade manufacturing commenced in Argentina at Tandil in the early 1940s, but as far as I know, was restricted to carbon steel, though this could have changed in later times. As well, that knife could have been made elsewhere, say Brazil, or any other part of the world on special order placed by an importer. Even in the early days, complete knives were made in Europe, in that style, for the Sth American market.

If nobody can improve on my unsatisfactory answer, then perhaps you could put it to Bernard Levine on another forum, who is very well versed in brands and manufacturers.

As a matter of interest, what is the furniture made from? German silver, AKA nickel silver, AKA Alpaca?

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Here is a rather sweet little knife.
Have a good look at the handle as there are little thin disks of white (now dark grey) metal which are made to be slightly larger so they stick out about 1mm. I assume that this can only be to provide grip and as the handle is already a shape that gives a good grip?
But I found myself wondering about it.
Which reminded me of the early smooth handled FS Commando knives and the problems of them becomming slippery and the soldiers being unable to pull them out due to a combination of blood on the handle and wound suction. Which resulted in the later ones having the ridged handles.
Could we be seeing a similar design feature here?

Dear Atlantia, the Canary Knife is a classical model related very closely with the antique mediterranean knife. This kind of handle is found even in the old knives from an area of Mexico dedicated at least from the 19th Century (if not from the 18th Century) to the craft of all kind of edged weapons, Sayula. I have one knife from my father, and its handle is almost identical to the canarian knive´s handles, though mine has a crossguard and a blade based on a very antique spanish-mexican model, resembling the Bowie knife´s blade. Those handles were made smooth and they are were very confortable in the hand. They were multipurpose working knives, though used as a weapon when needed. The FS daggers comes from an old model used widely in Europe as a fighting weapon. It has not new ideas in it´s conception, but the adaptation to specific needs, those of the british commandos. The metal handles were already used, and the design of special features to add ´grip´to the handle, were also very well known.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

I think that to this day, `Castellano' (English:Castillian) is still the correct term for what commonly passes for the vulgate `Spanish', though most whom I converse with, including MS Word, fail to make this distinction. Decades ago, anyone with a pretence to an education would never say "I speak Spanish", rather than "I speak Castillian" - It would appear to me that this convention is fading.

Just can't help feeling that Franco may have had something to do with the vigorous upholding of `Castillian', to counter the regionalist/secessionist tendencies in Spain, but I add that this is mere guessing on my part

However, illiteracy in Spain and in South America, was extremely widespread right up to WWII, especially in the rural areas, and this muddies the waters considerably due to the synonymity that was imputed to terms such as for example `Facon' with any knife worn by a gaucho and in a part/s of Spain, if I read Forton correctly, `Faca' was used interchangeably with `Navaja'.

As I pointed out in another thread, languages are dominated by conventions, which lend meanings and nuances to words, that are at times irrational or their derivation is outright incorrect - The "Puñal Criollo" is probably the most obvious example that I can bring to this discussion. And once these conventions have taken hold, it will take a very long time to correct the misuse of certain terms, and often we are stuck with them because of the legacy of historical writings.

Did a Google for it, but couldn't find a link. Any chance of posting it?

And when was it first compiled?

Cheers
Chris

The adoption of castilian as offical languaje of Spain comes from the political and military supremacy of the kingdom of Castilla-Aragón in the times of the Catholic Kings, over the rest of the spanish kingdoms, some of them very reluctant to the unification. This hegemony was not traduced in a complete integration (economic, linguistic, social, political). Thus the separatist forces, and the secular problems of Spain, menaced the unity of the country to the 20th Century, specially in the times of the Civil War, when some provinces saw the opportunity to get autonomy. Franco enforced the unity of the country in base of the centralist castilian government and the linguistic hegemony of the castilian, which had became the ´spanish´ language. Though in some provinces is still used today their local language, even at university level since the death of the dictator.

I agree with your statemens. Faca meant originally a knife.

I give you a link to the Real Academia Española. You will find all the information you need, and the access to the dictionary.

http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

The Academy was created in the beginning of the 18th Century. You can read a little article about, here:

http://www.elcastellano.org/lodares1.html

Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Ho Gonzalo,

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Franco enforced the unity of the country in base of the centralist castilian government and the linguistic hegemony of the castilian, which had became the ´spanish´ language. Though in some provinces is still used today their local language, even at university level since the death of the dictator.

Yes, that is so. I don't know when the secessionist tendencies started to really become strong, but I find it interesting that the ban on weapons commenced with the demise of the Hapsburgs and the Burbon ascendancy at the start of the 18th century, when the Spanish empire commenced its retreat.

I give you a link to the Real Academia Española. You will find all the information you need, and the access to the dictionary.

http://www.rae.es/RAE/Noticias.nsf/Home?ReadForm

The Academy was created in the beginning of the 18th Century. You can read a little article about, here:

http://www.elcastellano.org/lodares1.html

Many thanks for the links - They will prove to be invaluable.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hotspur, the better article I have found on this subject online on this matter, you can find it here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post87632

Though, I think you already know it, since the pictures you show are taken from Abel Domenech´s book and are from his property.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Hotspur,

Looking at that photo of two "gauchos" about to duel:

The one on the left and the "referee" are wearing expensive full leather boots (botas duras), a luxury and only for the well off, whereas the one on the right, the humble canvas shoes known there as "alpargatas", worn in those days by farm labourers (peons). Before the introduction of the alpargatas, poor gauchos wore a one piece raw-hide boot called "bota de potro", with their naked toes sticking out and fashioned from a one piece horse leg's skin.

What I find even stranger, is that they are all wearing the very old fashioned "chiripas" a diaper like substitute for trousers, whereas by the time that photo would have been taken, the "bombacha" a baggy trouser of military (zouave) origins was worn by horsemen.

Also, both appear to be wielding genuine large facons/dagas, rather than the expected working knife. The one on the left is wielding a rather large specimen, something that would not have been tolerated at a cattle station, especially from a peon, as suggested by his footwear.

So, IMHO, the photo was definitely posed, maybe even from an early movie. In any event, no Capataz (foreman) or Patron (owner of a cattle station) would bother fighting a duel with a mere peon.

Cheers
Chris