Proposed Changes in Swap Forum Rules

[Lee]

The Moderator's Team is considering this new 'rules set' for the swap forum:

1. This forum is to be used only for the posting of classified advertisements for ethnographic related items. Please update your ad when an item is no longer available for purchase.

2. BUYER BEWARE (caveat emptor). This Forum is NOT moderated, and the website (including the forums, staff and owner) is not responsible for anything posted here. The seller is solely responsible for his or her postings.

3. Ads without the following may be deleted without notice:
asking price, seller's email address.

4. Ads with the following may be deleted without notice:
links to eBay or other auctions, links to commercial websites.

5. All other rules of these forums must be observed.

Constructive comments and observations on the swap forum, on how it exists presently and how it may be improved, may be made as replies to this thread or may be privately communicated to the moderator of your choice.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for the heads up Lee, you have mail and you are most welcome to use points within for further discussions with the team.

Thanks

Gav

[kahnjar1]

Hi Lee,
I am assuming the "1" would include books related to antique/ethnographic weapons of all sorts?
Regarding "3"...............often a seller is prepared to accept "reasonable offers" on an item or may not have a clue as to an items worth, OR may have several items for sale and would prefer to deal with GENUINE buyers rather than "tire kickers". I agree with all other proposed requirements of this rule but would personally prefer to see the need to state a price removed.
Also don't forget that this Forum covers "wanted" ads which it would impossible to put a price on.
While I accept the need for rules, I would not like to see things get too cumbersome or restrictive. Status quo seems to be working OK?????????
Regards Stuart

[Maurice]

Hi Lee,

Why changing the rules as it is working as it is now?

Here my opinion:
About 1, 2 and 5 agreed.

About 3: I don't agree, because sometimes you can come to a price, swap, after letting people on the forum know that you are considering letting a piece go....Maybe somebody wants it badly enough to offer a price that the owner will pulled over the line to let it go for. Than 2 collectors are happy. The one who sold/swapped it, and the one who needed this piece to complete his collection....

About 4: don't agree. What is the problem of letting collectors know that there is something on auction or for sale on a personal website or ebay?
What's wrong of showing people were to find stuff they collect?
Nobody is forced to visit the website or ebay link and also nobody is forced to buy an item...

Just my opinion!
Rg,
Maurice

[asomotif]

Hello Lee,

I feel that too much rules might slowly suficate this forum.
Look at the keris swap forum...
We extensivley discussed the rules and I am happy that we banned "profesional" traders on that part (as they where often selling newly made and/or pimped up crap á blingbling ).

But on the entno swap I don't see much crappy stuff being offered.
I am happy with the updates that certain traders post there. (although if needed I can ofcourse sign up to there newsletters.)
But, if I sign up to their newsletters I have one reason less to visit the swap, so one reason less to visit the forum

So my opinion on nr. 4 : don't agree

As for point 3.

An asking price would be appreciated, but is not absolutely necesarry for me.
mentioning an e-mail address. No, rather not.
I don't mind being contacted by forum members, but putting my e-mail address out open will mean that everybody can contact me, and above that add me to spam or mailings.
Fyi, I have no spam filter and I receive "zero" spam by e-mail because I am rather choosy of where I leavy my address.

So as for Nr. 3 don't agree.

The other points are fine with me.

Best regards,
Willem

[kahnjar1]

I sincerely hope that there has been more interest in this subject than the replies here suggest!!

As it is too late to edit my original post, I just want to add that, in further relation to Proposal 3, that as this Forum is PRIMARILY for MEMBERS, the reply "system" of Private Messages already exists by way of the Member List, and it should be the MEMBERS CHOICE as to whether he chooses to devulge his email address.

Also I wish to reitterate as other replies here have indicated, that the present situation appears to be working well, and why change something which is NOT BROKEN !!

PERHAPS SOME OF THE MODERATORS WOULD CARE TO COMMENT HERE ON WHY THEY SEE THE NEED TO CHANGE THINGS??

ALSO, SINCE THIS POTENTIALLY WILL AFFECT THAT SECTION, I BELIEVE THAT THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD ALSO APPEAR AS A STICKY ON THE SWAP FORUM.

Regards, Stuart

[Clubs & Arrows]

Hello.
I don't post too often, but I have used the Swap Forum to trade pieces with other collectors/dealers in the past. I haven't posted anything in the past with prices, because when I trade, prices aren't discussed, due to the fact that everyone usually has an idea of what they want, or what they think your piece/pieces are worth. As far as taking away the ability to advertise personal websites....I have one, and although it is ethnographic, I haven't advertised it here because it isn't weapons based. The sites that are advertised in the swap forum are weapons based, and from time to time the site owners will remind us that they are still updating the sites, or having sales, etc. If you block them from advertising, will people discussing particular items from so and so's website (past or present) be a problem? What about people using captured images of pieces from other individual's sites?
As for ebay, I have both sold and bought there, and don't really see a problem with linking ads to it. I've seen people post on the swap forum first, and after a while post that they have moved the item to ebay, because of lack of interest. My thought is just to keep things as they are.

Thanks,
Joe

[fearn]

I'm not an active user of the swap forum, but I'm not happy with some of these rules:

1. General: Vikingsword is *easy* to get to on Google and is also cited as a reputable source on Wikipedia. In other words, anything posted here is readily findable. How much information did you want to post about ourselves and our collections on this extremely public site? If I was running a scam, this would be among the first places I would look for plausible information.
2. We don't give appraisals, but you want us to post asking prices? These policies seem to be contradictory.
3. The biggest question: what will it improve?
--Will it stop scams? Absolutely not.
--Will it make us and our collections less secure? A bit. We would have to link an object with a price, an online name, and an email. It's the risk we take selling stuff online, but since it won't stop scams, I'm not sure what it will do.
4. Links to commercial sites: I'm absolutely unclear about why this is warranted. Here's an example: I'm working on getting a manuscript published, and I know that it might be of interest to people here. When it gets published, I was planning on posting a link to amazon so that people could buy it if interested. That's obviously a no go under these rules. But it would be okay if I posted that information in the main discussion forum? How about if I posted a link to a museum gift store as opposed to Amazon?

Right now, I'm on the list of people who don't understand what problems these rules are intended to fix.

Best,

F

[Lew]

Fearn

You said We don't give appraisals, but you want us to post asking prices? These policies seem to be contradictory.


1-You are correct no appraisal on the public forum but that does not stop any member from contacting another member in private to see what he or she thinks something is worth. Also one can just go to ebay or one of the many dealers of antique weapons web sites to get an idea of what a piece is worth

2-Have you ever gone into a store that did not post prices? When you go into a store to buy a camera do you expect the store to post a price or do you take the camera with no price tag and go up to the store owner and let him decide how much he wants to charge you? He might decide to charge you more because you drove up to the store in a BMW while the next person might get a different price because they drove to the store in a Honda civic. Please don't give me that line that has been used before by some "I tell you a price privately and if it's too much then you don't have too buy it". Try that line at your local food mart store excuse me sir there is no price posted on this quart of milk? Pssst over here.... Well the price for you is $20 if it's too much than don't buy it! It should be all about transparency here. If you want to use the swap you should be able to come up with a asking price that you think meets your expectations of what you want to get from the sale of said item and post it for all members to see. I think this is a pretty reasonable request.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Lew

Fearn

You said We don't give appraisals, but you want us to post asking prices? These policies seem to be contradictory.


1-You are correct no appraisal on the public forum but that does not stop any member from contacting another member in private to see what he or she thinks something is worth. Also one can just go to ebay or one of the many dealers of antique weapons web sites to get an idea of what a piece is worth

2-Have you ever gone into a store that did not post prices? When you go into a store to buy a camera do you expect the store to post a price or do you take the camera with no price tag and go up to the store owner and let him decide how much he wants to charge you? He might decide to charge you more because you drove up to the store in a BMW while the next person might get a different price because they drove to the store in a Honda civic. Please don't give me that line that has been used before by some "I tell you a price privately and if it's too much then you don't have too buy it". Try that line at your local food mart store excuse me sir there is no price posted on this quart of milk? Pssst over here.... Well the price for you is $20 if it's too much than don't buy it! It should be all about transparency here. If you want to use the swap you should be able to come up with a asking price that you think meets your expectations of what you want to get from the sale of said item and post it for all members to see. I think this is a pretty reasonable request.

Hi Lew,
I don't want to comment on anything said above, EXCEPT the need to post a price when an item is up for swap. Often price or worth does not come into it when a swap is arranged. If both parties to the deal are happy, the actual value of the pieces exchanged may be way apart.
No mandatory listing of prices remains my vote.
Stuart

[Lew]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Lew,
I don't want to comment on anything said above, EXCEPT the need to post a price when an item is up for swap. Often price or worth does not come into it when a swap is arranged. If both parties to the deal are happy, the actual value of the pieces exchanged may be way apart.
No mandatory listing of prices remains my vote.
Stuart

Stuart

In a trade situation you mean? I think price is only required if you are selling not trading that is my take on it.

[kahnjar1]

Yes Lew. I thought the term SWAP meant just that.
Since you are obviously "live" I think that the Members need some comment from the Moderators as to the perceived need for ANY of these changes. If the Forum becomes too difficult with large numbers of rules, I feel that people will start looking elsewhere. It would be a great pity to break something which is in my opinion working well anyway.
Stuart

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

But, if I sign up to their newsletters I have one reason less to visit the swap, so one reason less to visit the forum

Is the swap forum really a major reason for anyone to visit these forums? Isn't it the intensive and well-informed discussion of ethnographic weapons which, AFAIK can't be found at this level anywhere else on the Internet? The swap forum was originally begun to allow our collecting members a way to dispose of items they no longer wanted and offer them to other collecting members who might have a place in their collections for such an item. It was never intended to be a clearing house for dealers or a place for competitive auctions.

Originally Posted by Maurice

About 3: I don't agree, because sometimes you can come to a price, swap, after letting people on the forum know that you are considering letting a piece go....Maybe somebody wants it badly enough to offer a price that the owner will pulled over the line to let it go for. Than 2 collectors are happy. The one who sold/swapped it, and the one who needed this piece to complete his collection....

I am confused about this reasoning. Naming a price in no way means that the seller cannot settle for a lower price in negotiation with a buyer or decide to trade with a potential buyer if the buyer offers a piece that interests the seller. It does set the price that the seller expects and keeps the swap from becoming an auction house with competing bidding. It also give a potential swapper an idea of the value of the piece in the seller's eyes and some idea of what might be an acceptable item to offer in swap to the seller.

Originally Posted by Clubs & Arrows

The sites that are advertised in the swap forum are weapons based, and from time to time the site owners will remind us that they are still updating the sites, or having sales, etc. If you block them from advertising, will people discussing particular items from so and so's website (past or present) be a problem? What about people using captured images of pieces from other individual's sites?

It has always been a problem to discuss particular items that are currently up for sale or auction. I believe the same would be true of captured images if the item is currently up for sale.
In terms of regular dealers making people aware of their websites, websites can always be posted in a member's profile page. Perhaps dealer members could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites. As for updates, i would assume that active dealers are always updating their websites and that interested parties would check in from time to time anyway.

[Lew]

David has a point the reason we come to this forum is for knowlege and sharing thoughts,ideas of our collecting experiences. One should not use the swap rules as a reason to leave the forum.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Lew

David has a point the reason we come to this forum is for knowlege and sharing thoughts,ideas of our collecting experiences. One should not use the swap rules as a reason to leave the forum.

..............but why do we need to change anything??

[Royston]

Gents,

I have been following this and trying to make my mind up.
I do not come here to buy, sell or swap ( although I have done all three ).
I come here for knowledge and exchange of information. I have learnt a lot in the 2 years that I have been a member.

I think that the present system for the swap forum works well enough, if people want to list their email address and price then it should be up to them.
As already stated it is easy enough to look at other sites to get an idea of prices and buyers can make up their own minds about what an item is worth TO THEM.

So item 3 is not necessary for me.

As far as item 4 goes, I think that a regular contributor should be able to list links, but if someone is only on the site for selling and nothing else then they should be asked to " change their ways"

regards
Roy

[fernando]

Hi Stu,

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... If the Forum becomes too difficult with large numbers of rules, I feel that people will start looking elsewhere ...

Bitter feelings, my friend .
Say, aren't you 'swapping' things ?
Improving swap rules is the issue here
I would never dream with your assumption that, utilizing the swap section, is the major reason to frequent Vickingsword forum .
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Improving swap rules is the issue here
Fernando

Improving anything is good as long as it is an improvement, for clarity for all, where are the deficencies currently with the swap forum that warrant this structure or improvments? Perhaps they are the points that should be discussed openly with whys.

Gav

[Lew]

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Improving anything is good as long as it is an improvement, for clarity for all, where are the deficencies currently with the swap forum that warrant this structure or improvments? Perhaps they are the points that should be discussed openly with whys.

Well Gav, i did a bit of that in my post #13, to which no one seems to have responded to other than other moderators.

[David]

I must also point out that the very first line of this thread states that "The Moderator's Team is considering this new 'rules set' for the swap forum."
It's very interesting to see who is getting all bent out of shape over this. Nothing has been put in place and the very fact that it has been put out here for discussion should tell you all something. Now...everyone breathe...

BTW, i also think that email addresses from sellers should be optional. On the other side of that coin however, the seller might want to consider that posting their email address would allow more potential buyers to contact them, since lurkers who are not members would be unable to use PM.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

..............but why do we need to change anything??

Stuart

I really do not get your statement? We are only changing some rules on the swap which are still open to discussion I don't think that these are Earth shattering requests here?

[Atlantia]

I don't use the swap forum much... well, at all TBH, but I will do at some point, and in fact I've been meaning to get around to putting some things on there.
To be completely honest, I think there are enough rules already.
I've had a few things to list for a while and I keep thinking 'Oh I'll put that on Vikingsword' then I think 'what was the rule about putting something up that's been discussed'? Has it been long enough, will I upset anyone....
So I haven't yet posted anything.

In my humble opinion, for that reason the rules already work against the best interests of members in that respect. If a member decides to sell something that's been discussed, it's just easier to sell it elsewhere than risk contravention of the rules here.
I would respectfully offer the opinion that it should be encouraged for members to offer items here first. Especially as many members have somewhat 'esoteric' tastes that are difficult to cater for. A healthy swap forum would seem to be in everyones best interests.
Also, as someone who often sells things via 'offers' I have to disagree with making a price mandatory.
As for links to off-site sales.....
Well, I can see an argument for not allowing people to simply use this place as a shop-window for sure, but to be frank, some of the commercial wesite owners who promote their sites/items here are absolute cornerstones of the community.
Like Gav! Always helpful, generous with his time and a total asset to the site (Send the fiver to the usual address Gav ) But seriuosly, what would anyone gain by stopping him or others like him from using the swap forum as they do at present?
Of course Gav's not the only one, appologies to those not mentioned.
So for me, leave as-is or loosen the rules a little!

The only limit I would be in favour of would be to stop people ONLY posting in the swap forum.

Anyway, thats my 2c. Total respect to the great Mod team of course. Hope I've not offended anyone, as I consider you all friends.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

Lew,

Rules are rules and I have no problem with rules, dealer or not if they be put in place, they must however be clear.

My initial thoughts were expressed to Lee and I am sure here has bought them to the table internally as I have seen one point expressed above.

I'm pretty easy going Lew, my philosopy is simple, what comes will come, what stays will stay and what goes will go. The rules may come the rules may go, thats life, but saying that, I like all things to be equal and everyone to be on an even playing field in a shared enviroment, I am like that and very fair with my own employees in my own role as a State Business Coordinator for a large rail company, no one has the upper hand and we all share the same open office plan, nothing is hidden.

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing? I ask cause that aint me. Mine is a hobby, I buy and sell and have a point of sale for the benfit of others to find what they want and to grow my own personal collections, nothing more, it doesn't line my pockets or build me ivory towers.

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.

Is there a need to do something about the ethno forum? Obviously or there wouldn't be this discussion going on. Tell us what the issues are , this makes proposed change easier to deal with for some I am sure.

I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too. If the people are an issue, talk to the people and get a resolution, if dealers post to often in a style thats not to taste talk to them, if single sellers (who I still call a dealer depending of frequency) are bumping to much to often talk to them.
The issue I see in these proposed changes is not seeing the clartiy of the 'whys', the full picture. Is there dealer or Ebay resentment out there? I don't know? Is there? I know I do a lot for free for a lot of people here and they are the only ones who see this, recently I helped ISPN dispose of his Dha to a non member, nothing for me. Will I take an interest in the swap forum and the other people within its pages if I am closed out because I have a website, probably not, just another step closer to the keris forum in my eyes and others I know. Will I be missed in the swap forum, I think not. Will it bother me? Not really. Will I continue to converse in the forum pages, of course, life goes on.

But I put to you Lew as a moderator rep;
Why the proposed changes? The full picture.
What are the becauses behind the proposed changes?
Most of all, what are the expected benefits from the proposed changes? To change anything there must be a benefit???

Originally Posted by David

Is the swap forum really a major reason for anyone to visit these forums? Isn't it the intensive and well-informed discussion of ethnographic weapons which, AFAIK can't be found at this level anywhere else on the Internet? The swap forum was originally begun to allow our collecting members a way to dispose of items they no longer wanted and offer them to other collecting members who might have a place in their collections for such an item. It was never intended to be a clearing house for dealers or a place for competitive auctions.

I am confused about this reasoning. Naming a price in no way means that the seller cannot settle for a lower price in negotiation with a buyer or decide to trade with a potential buyer if the buyer offers a piece that interests the seller. It does set the price that the seller expects and keeps the swap from becoming an auction house with competing bidding. It also give a potential swapper an idea of the value of the piece in the seller's eyes and some idea of what might be an acceptable item to offer in swap to the seller.

It has always been a problem to discuss particular items that are currently up for sale or auction. I believe the same would be true of captured images if the item is currently up for sale.
In terms of regular dealers making people aware of their websites, websites can always be posted in a member's profile page. Perhaps dealer members could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites. As for updates, i would assume that active dealers are always updating their websites and that interested parties would check in from time to time anyway.

Originally Posted by David

Well Gav, i did a bit of that in my post #13, to which no one seems to have responded to other than other moderators.

David,

I do see part of the picture expressed about where it was and were it is, this is nice to have it suggested. If these are the reasons at to why this is proposed great, spell it out loud and clear, put a sticky in the swap forum and monitor it. Too easy.
For me points 1,2,5 all good but points 3&4 all good too but the statements are non clear proposals. I have trouble getting my head around the word 'may', too vague. What is it? It either will or it wont, this is my question about the use of this word 'may' in points 3&4. Answering this may add a little more clarity. The rest of the content I see as just 'what to do' notions not why reasons.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing?

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

Originally Posted by freebooter

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.
I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

David,

Great and valid points within.

I think it is clear that the swap forum is NOT the reason people are here, however the real double edged sword is we are all here to discusss learn and study these wonderful weapons but think for a momnet, and yes there are many external avenues for commerce but without commerce be it here or anywhere else, there is no flow of product to follow. No product, nothing new, nothing new, no learning, no discussions. Please take it as a point context, not an absolute.
I'll take a back seat for a while and see what the broader community have to say as they are what makes this forum so fantastic to participate.

I look forward to seeing the questions I pose answered in time.

Gav

[fearn]

Hi Lew and all,

I think we've still got some contradictions here. Personally, I have bought a couple of things on the swap forum, and it is useful to have a price on there. However, that forum isn't a store, and I respect the people who only give out price info when contacted.

I also respect those who want to swap things. That leaves me out, because I have a small collection, and I would have to swap money for most of the things I see. In that sense, a desire to trade among friends is certainly exclusionary.

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

[kronckew]

as a moderator on a commercial security software firewall's user support forum, i am a bit more paranoid about revealing my mailing address or posting links on a searchable site that is open to bots and slurp spiders et al.

posting items and photos of my stuff and discussing them in the appropriate forums is one thing, but if i decide to sell, i'd sell somewhere i did not have to reveal personal details to the world that could compromise my location. it's not tough to find, but i don't go advertising myself either. for similar reasons i'd not want to post prices for my stuff that they could add up to see if it were worthwhile paying me a surprise visit some night. it should be a recommendation, not an absolute requirement.

i also see no reason to not post that an item is now up for auction on e-pray or other site, as long as it is obvious that the poster is a discussion member here and the item auctioned is indeed his, especially if he's advertised it here & no-one has jumped at it.

i have not as yet used the swap forum but am uneasy about 3 & 4. i would go along with them as recommendations, but not as absolutes.

something to prohibit posts until members have a certain number of posts in the discussion fora, to discourage dealers only using the swap/sale forum would also be appropriate. the mods here are smart enough to use their discretion in grey areas, if the rules are too tight, it removes their discretionary powers. in other words, let common sense apply.

i like the caveat emptor bit and am a firm believer in if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!
Also sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to the larger collections of senior members, but i don't think there is any kind of exclusionary club going on here. I am also pretty convinced that the large majority of items that are put up for swap most often end up being let go for a cash sum in private messaging dealings. This is why i think it is probably best for trader/sellers to place a cash value even if their initial intention is to trade. That would also give someone who is unclear of the value of an item an idea of what would be a worth piece to offer in exchange.
And believe me Fearn, that we have driven unsavory, dishonest dealers off the Keris Swap is in no way "terrible for everyone else". Unless it is your desire to purchase a countless array of contemporary keris artificially aged and presented as Mataram or Mojophahit weapons. Then you are obviously missing out on being ripped off. Sorry if we interfered with that.
If you spend anytime on the actual keris forum though you might find that the discussions there are alive and deeply informative. And any collector who wants to pass on a weapon through the swap can do so without much trouble and without paying the percentages required for eBay and other online auctions. I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules the Keris Swap has that are preventing sales from happening.

Originally Posted by fearn

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

A separate Swap Only forum would solve nothing since as i pointed out the majority of swaps turn into cash sales anyway.
As for point #2, how do we decide what is actively malicious material? Who amongst us is knowledgeable enough in all fields of weapons to judge whether a comment is correct or just a smear? Who wants to give even more of their time to trying to sort all that out? And as i recall there was a great deal of trouble on last year's swap board when someone made an inaccurate comment the killed a very big deal for one of our members. I don't recall the exact details, but i am sure someone can fill you in. I think it might have been Gavin's reputation that got unjustly smeared. Forgive me if i am wrong on that Gav. This is why we installed the policy of not permitting members to make any comments of items that are put up for swap.

[Mytribalworld]

Hi,

I must say that I appriciate the way this forum is once set up and its quite normal that from time to time you overvieuw the system and want to makes things better,renew etc. Also rules may change as time learns and collectors and ways to collect changes, no problem with that all.

Being collector and dealer in one I have always struggled with the question whats the part in me that collects and which part is the dealer? Its quite an unique job and still I haven't found an answer for it.

Commercial is a easy word but " we dealers" don't run a supermarket or photographer store, most dealers ( I don't know any dealer who doesn't collect) are collector themself. We are buying and selling mostly scarce objects and be sure finding, describing and selling cost a lot of time.
A lot of time is mostly invested in study as knowledge is a thing the dealer should have to select his objects. This forum has always been a great place to share info for both parties ( dealers,collectors)

I can be wrong in my interpretation but I have the feeling that there will come more space between the two with the new rules.
If its good for the forum the time will learn, we'll see.
I really hope course I think the intensions are well meant.

for me personal I don't think a link or not make any difference in selling results, but I prefer to have the freedom to do so.
( there are so much great links coming this year and I am sure you wouldn't miss them!

best regards and good luck with the forum!,

Arjan