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#1 |
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Here we have one that belonged to Osman Bey and was made in Damascus, Syria.
Now let us try to find more of the same kind with incriptions containing the place of origin, in the hope we can accurately locate more of them and eventually establish a pattern. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th March 2020 at 02:53 PM. |
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Here we have a second one attributed to Turkey and dated 1187 corresponding to 1773 AD.
Maybe Kwiatek will be kind enough to translate the text for us so we cand know where exactly does it come from... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th March 2020 at 02:55 PM. |
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#3 |
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Interesting that the second one is described as "... generally attributed to Albania or Montenegro". And then mentions its issuance to the " Balkan mercenaries"; those were by and large Albanians.
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#4 | |
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And further continues saying they were in fact typical Turkish and of probable Kurdish origin... which is consistent with what Elgood said. ![]() Last edited by mariusgmioc; 20th March 2020 at 01:43 PM. |
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More of these, they are called by collectors and dealers "Albanian jambiya".
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As you can see some of them have hilts more Kurdish in style...
To support Marius point and the link with Persian blades, I think the Kurds are the link: from today Turkey to Syria up to Iran... |
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I also read that the city of Mosul was famous for its wootz, until the Mongols captured it in the XIII century. Perhaps later the tradition was restored, but I do not know about it. |
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Interesting twist on the story.
However, it is my understanding that Armenian and Georgian Kurds engaged mainly in agriculture and menial jobs such as porters. The list of Caucasian armorers in Astvatsaturyans books does not include obvious Kurdish names and does not mention their involvement in the production of weapons. Do you have any information to the contrary? |
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A totally crazy idea: is it possible that when we ( or some of us) attribute such daggers to Albania, the real Albania is not the Balkan one , but the Caucasian Albania? It was a historical area comprising of current Azerbaijan and Daghestan, and its inhabitants were of Iranic origin.
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Some rich Kurds... |
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However, this does not contradict the fact that part of the Kurds served as gatekeepers. Similarly, in modern India, the Gurkhas serve. But these are those who were unable to enlist in the Army or private military companies. Quote:
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It would be very interesting for me to learn the opinion of Kwiatek about the handwriting styles by which the inscriptions were made. |
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#13 | |
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Of course, Kurds were engaged in occupations other than robbers and porters. I am asking whether there is any information of them working as armorers: bladesmiths, gunsmiths, jewelers etc. Do you have any such info? The same is true about ethnic origins of a master. Of course, not. But my question remains the same: do you know of any Kurds professionally involved in weapon manufacture in Georgia, Armenia or North Caucasus? |
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I have no information about gunsmiths of Kurdish origin, because I did not look for her. |
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About Kurds, from Saladin to today's wars in Irak and Syria, they showed their great capacities as warriors. You have on this forum a video showing a Kurd blacksmith. Not to mention the Kurdish shield very often described as Ottoman Turkish shield. Dealers and collectors who mentioned Albanian jambiya refereed to present day Albania in the Balkans. I never heard about Caucasian Albania. |
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I checked Rivkin's book on the "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus" and this ttype of daggers isn't even mentioned.
Now regarding Kurdish origins... well there are many stylistical similarities with other Kurdish daggers of more certaind origins (see photoas attached - the blades and decoration of the blades), but they also have the "hooked" hilt that is very specific and uncommon with Kurdish daggers. However, I believer the "hooked" hilt has some similarity with the hooked Yataghan hilts and with some Turkish bicaq hilts (see photo). That's why I am inclined towards the Turkish origin of these daggers. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 23rd March 2020 at 12:48 PM. |
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So, when authors or collectors were referring to these daggers as "Albanian" daggers they were referring to the Albanian Albania, and not to the "Caucasian Albania." Moreover, the point here is to realistically try to establish the origin of these daggers and since they quite certainly are not from the Caucasus area, there is little point to speculate about the "Caucasian Albania"... |
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#19 |
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Old son, I have warned you from the git go it was a crazy idea.
But at least you know now about two Albanias:-) Useless informations are the most precious ones. |
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Plus I saw a Caucasian Iberia... more and more confusing... ![]() |
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They are very similar to the Kurdish ones but with silver filigree fittings. I might be wrong but it will be good to focus only on the first dagger that you posted as the shape is different from the others. But I agree that they share many features. |
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Bıçak: knife EN[1] oldTR biç-/bıç- +gAk → biç- oldTR kınğırak (et bıçağı TR; meat knife EN). biçek/bıçak [ Divan-i Lugat-it Türk, 1070] Bel bıçağı, et bıçağı, kıyma bıçağı, kaymak bıçağı, pastırma bıçağı, börek bıçağı, bekçi bıçağı , kasap bıçağı. from oldTR[ Kaşgarî, Divan-i Lugati't-Türk, 1073] biçek: as-sikkīn [bıçak] (...) as-sayf [kılıç]; oldTR: [ Kutadgu Bilig, 1069] bıçaḳ tartma anda kötürme süŋük [bıçak çekme orda ve kemik taşıma oldTR bıçak/biçek kesme aleti oldTR *bıçġak < ETü bıç- +(g)Ak
Oldest source: biçek/bıçak "aynı anlamda" [Divan-i Lugat-it Türk (1070)] The bichaq is a single-edged dagger of Turkish origin. It is widespread in areas controlled by the Ottoman Empire and its close neighbors. The blade of this knife is either straight, holds a slight forward curve, like a short yataghan, or very rarely a backwards curve, like a jambiya. This knife and others were made at the end of 19th century. They were often sold as souvenirs to officers of the Austro-Hungarian Empire who invaded Bosnia at the time. The principal centers of production were Sarajevo and Foca. source of the above : costak.blogspot.com / date Friday, July 05, 2019 |
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also often used in the countries of the former Ottoman empire next to Biçak, Bicak / Bicaq the names Hancer/ Handschar/Hançar and Kama:
Hançer: dagger EN[2] fromAR ḥancar حنجر kısa savunma bıçağı Aramaic χangərā חנגרא a.a. (= Sogdian χangar a.a. ) dagger[1], knife [2] [ Dede Korkut Kitabı, c.1400] Basatuŋ χançeri varıdı; edügünü yardı from Arabic ḥancar حنجر kısa savunma bıçağı TR; short defensive knife EN; from Aramaic χangərā חנגרא Sogdian χangar) Oldest source: [Dede Korkut Kitabı (before c. 1400) : Basatuñ hançeri varıdı; edügünü yardı] Kama: dagger EN[2] ARM kam գամ çivi. Nail EN Oldest source: kamamak "perçinlemek" [TDK, Tarama Sözlüğü (before c. 1600)] kama "büyük çivi, ağaç takoz" [ Meninski, Thesaurus (1680) ] kama "bir nevi hançer" [Ahmet Vefik Paşa, Lugat-ı Osmani (1876)] source : costak.blogspot.com / Friday, July 05, 2019 |
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Some literature:
Niels A. Andersen, On some Political Gold Yatagans from Algiers and Tunis, Vaabenhistoriske Aarbĝger XIII, Kĝbenhavn 1966, page 159/226. Esin Atil, The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, Washington 1987, page 147, 152/153, Maurice Bottet, La Manufacture d'Armes de Versailles, Boutet Directeur Artiste, Paris 1903, Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword, London 1884, page 133/134. Anton Dolleczek, Monographie der k. u. k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen, Wien 1896/Graz 1970, page 32/33. Jacob, Armes blanches page 114/123. Dietrich Menz, Handschar/Yatagan, Deutsches Waffenjournal, Schwäbisch Hall 1967, Nr. 4 page 270/272. Anthony North, Islamic Arms, London 1985, page 24/26 Marija Sercer, Jatagani u Povijesnom Muzeju Hrvatske, Zagreb 1975 Turgay Tezcan, Silahar, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi, Istanbul 1983, page 32/33, 35. Yatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb, Katalog Graz 1976 Vejsil Curcic , Starinsko Oruzje, Sarajevo 1926 |
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