Frey Collection Picit

[David]

This beautiful keris picit just recently sold at auction. Don't know if someone in our own community was the fortunate buying (didn't go cheap, i'll tell ya ), but i thought i'd share it here for your viewing and commentary.
You can see this keris on the page from Frey's book in the lower right corner and read his brief description.

[kai]

It's a shame that Edward Frey and many others do not show the blades of many published keris.

I'd guess at eastern Sumatra or Riau (coastal Malay) origin. That's quite a bit of pamor/features!

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

It's a shame that Edward Frey and many others do not show the blades of many published keris.

I'd guess at eastern Sumatra or Riau (coastal Malay) origin. That's quite a bit of pamor/features!

I agree. You'd think he would have wanted to show a blade like this. The image in the book of the sheathed blade is an easy pass-over, but the blade really makes you stop and look, now don't it.

[Battara]

I handled this piece in Baltimore. The patina on the pendok looked like gilded silver to me, but after a long time and if it is lower gold, I suppose it could be like a 14k.

Also the hulu came off in my hand - attached at all. But this is an easy fix.

A nice piece.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I handled this piece in Baltimore. The patina on the pendok looked like gilded silver to me, but after a long time and if it is lower gold, I suppose it could be like a 14k.

Also the hulu came off in my hand - attached at all. But this is an easy fix.

A nice piece.

Well, i couldn't say, though Frey does describe it in his description as "heavy gold". It wouldn't matter personally to me if it were in my collection, though i would image the heavy price it went for was at least partially driven by a significant amount of gold weight.
It's not at all surprising that the hulu was not tightly fixed. I believe a lot of collectors tend to keep their ivory hilts loose to avoid cracking them as they expand and contract with the weather. Not necessarily something that needs a fix.
A nice piece indeed though...

[rasdan]

I have doubts on several things about this keris. One of it is the "rainbow" effect on the pendok (circled red in the pic below), I think only seen on gilded silver.

Something does not seem right about this keris. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[David]

Originally Posted by rasdan

I have doubts on several things about this keris. One of it is the "rainbow" effect on the pendok (circled red in the pic below), I think only seen on gilded silver.

Something does not seem right about this keris. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well Rasdan, i'm not sure what you mean about something not being "right" about this keris. If by some chance the pendok was gilded silver what would be "wrong" about that. However, these are not high quality photographs and i personally don't believe it is possible to tell, based on these photos alone, whether we have gilded silver of gold here. There are far too many factors that can affect a photo in this manner to be able to tell for sure. Frankly i'm far more interested in the blade than the material of the pendok. It was, apparently, part of Frey's personal collection for some time and he identifies the material as "heavy gold" so who knows. I would think an experienced researcher like Frey would know, but perhaps he made a false assumption and never bothered to test it. i don't find the keris any less interesting either way though.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by rasdan

I have doubts on several things about this keris. One of it is the "rainbow" effect on the pendok (circled red in the pic below), I think only seen on gilded silver.

Something does not seem right about this keris. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What is certain is that photos can be misleading, but if I were to judge it by the photo, I would agree that it certainly doesn't look like gold but like gilded silver. Even low karat gold (9 karat) from all what I know doesn't display this kind of patina.

PS: After carefully examining more photos, I noticed the "rainbow" patina doesn't show on all of them so it might just be a photo glitch.

[rasdan]

Sorry David, I was not being clear. Actually when I was saying something is not quite right, I meant with other factors that I considered. My mistake.

Edit: I edited my comment because I feel it is not very nice for me to say something about the keris that may raise issues. Sorry guys.

[mariusgmioc]

I know very little about kerises and I wonder how old this blade is?!

I would guess it is quite old.

[Jean]

To me this nice kris looks like to date from early to mid 20th century, I agree that the pendok & pendokok are most probably from gilt silver and not gold (it makes a huge difference on the price), and the hilt is not from walrus ivory.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

To me this nice kris looks like to date from early to mid 20th century, I agree that the pendok & pendokok are most probably from gilt silver and not gold (it makes a huge difference on the price), and the hilt is not from walrus ivory.
Regards

Jean, the description actually claims that the buntut is walrus ivory, not the hulu. And the hulu most certainly IS ivory of some sort, probably elephant. I would be seriously impressed if anyone here could accurately identify the type of ivory in that buntut from these photographs.
I really cannot speak further to gold issue. I just cannot tell from a photograph. I do know that the price it demanded seemed to accept it as solid gold and that Frey seems to present it as such. Since i was not the buyer this is of little concern to me though.
For me it is also simply not possible to determine the age of this keris based upon the photographs, though i do suspect the blade is older than 20th century.
Frankly gentlemen, i am surprised at the amount of nitpicking, but it's not mine so i certainly don't take it personally. Let's see what else we can find wrong with this beautiful keris. LOL!

[Jean]

David,
Sorry for the confusion and from the first & last pics especially the buntut may be made from walrus ivory indeed (marble appearance). Frey should be correct on this issue, otherwise he would not have mentioned it.
Something more wrong with this kris? The picit IMO unless it was a common feature of the Malay blades, which I don't know.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Something more wrong with this kris? The picit IMO unless it was a common feature of the Malay blades, which I don't know.
Regards

Well again, i'm not sure i would use the word "wrong". I personally am not aware of picit being at all common in Malay blades. In fact i am not sure i have ever seen this feature in anything other than a Javanese blade. But that is a large part of what makes this blade intriguing to me.

[Battara]

I can clear some of this up. The "rainbow" look is not the photography but is real - actual patina. In person it is the same look to the metal.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I can clear some of this up. The "rainbow" look is not the photography but is real - actual patina. In person it is the same look to the metal.

Thanks for the hands on report José. If i were the new owner i would probably have it tested, especially given the price the piece went for, but i doesn't make this keris any less attractive and intriguing for me.

[David]

I did a little research and tracked down the actual auction.
For what it's worth the auction house attests that it is all pure gold. I cannot verify their claim without the piece in hand, of course, but it does seem unlikely that an auction of this stature would lie about such an important component to potential bidding.
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...ia*-AB640A98B5

[kai]

Hello David,

For what it's worth the auction house attests that it is all pure gold.

I have yet to know any auction house that guarantees any item descriptions. I guess they just went with Frey's collection notes without any scrutinizing.

Considering the patination on the front side, I also believe this is gilded silver; I'd also be extremely surprised if the selut were solid gold (usually these are fire-gilded at best). Why the wear is on the front side while the back side seems still intact is anybody's guess...

I agree that the real worth of any keris should be in the blade though.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Yep. While i will pass no judgement on the material it could quite possibly be as you say. People don't always tell the truth. Go figure!
But it is that blade i find really interesting. As has been noted, i can't think of any picit blades outside of Jawa. Perhaps a few. Anybody? This blade had been in Frey's collection at least since the early 80s and probably longer. But it does not appear to be a Javanese blade to my eyes. I know nothing about the resurgence of keris production in Malaysia, only that it had been practically dead in Jawa post WWII until the 1970s when it got a kick start through the encouragement of people like Dietrich Drescher so i am inclined to think that this must be a pre-WWII blade at the very least. I would be interested in hearing if someone has a different interpretation, but i would not think that a blade like this would have been made between the time the war and the 1980s perhaps anywhere in Indonesia. I would be very interested to know if anyone is aware of a tradition of picit blades outside of Jawa.

[kai]

Hello David,

Yes, I was going to concentrate on the blade, too.

I would be very interested to know if anyone is aware of a tradition of picit blades outside of Jawa.

Yes, there is. I have seen several of these shorter and stout blades from other areas of the archipelago - some have picit, too.

While it may be tough to verify whether these all really originated from outside of the land of Jawa, I'd at least suggest that the pamor motifs here are not typical and also the ricikan and gandik features suggest different influences.

I've also had an antique alameng sword with several picit "thumb prints" on an otherwise typical Bugis blade.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, there is. I have seen several of these shorter and stout blades from other areas of the archipelago - some have picit, too.

While it may be tough to verify whether these all really originated from outside of the land of Jawa, I'd at least suggest that the pamor motifs here are not typical and also the ricikan and gandik features suggest different influences.

Yes, the dhapur is not so much a question for me. I have also seen similar profiled blades from location outside Jawa, just not with the picit feature.
And yes, it is those very features you mention, especially the specific pamor motifs present here, that lead me to believe this is not a Jawa blade. It would not be so much of an enigma to me if not for the picit.
You mention that you have seen some of these shorter and stout Malay keris with picit. Do you have any examples you can show? Anyone?

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

I've also had an antique alameng sword with several picit "thumb prints" on an otherwise typical Bugis blade.

Actually Kai, even though we usually try to keep the postings on this forum to only keris, i wouldn't mind having a look at that sword just to establish visually that the talismanic concept of picit markings was established in Bugis culture. It's just not something i have seen before seeing this Frey keris. If you would care to share a photo that would be great.

[Jean]

A good friend referred me to the auction listings (www.heliosauctions.com), so those of you who are interested can discover them
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

A good friend referred me to the auction listings (www.heliosauctions.com), so those of you who are interested can discover them
Regards

Thanks Jean. I posted a similar link directly to the piece in question above in post #17.
From what i understand this keris went for more than 3 times estimated price.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Jean. I posted a similar link directly to the piece in question above in post #17.
From what i understand this keris went for more than 3 times estimated price.

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

[silberschatzimsee]

Originally Posted by kai

I have yet to know any auction house that guarantees any item descriptions. I guess they just went with Frey's collection notes without any scrutinizing.

A big gun auction house in fairfield usa claims to do so.


Concerning the metal, i also think its gilded silver.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

LOL! I was not aware that collection of keris was now a fad amongst the nouveau riche.
As we all know the price for a nice keris can run really high for a any number of reasons. If the bidder truly felt this was solid gold as claimed that would, of course, add to the material cost of this keris. The ivory parts, with paperwork attesting to it antiquity also adds to that material value. But other factors are probably at play here as well. Being a part of an acknowledged private collection of an established and generally respected author on keris probably adds some value for certain collectors just as any item that can be established as having belonged to a well know person or celebrity. It is a piece that was published in a book most keris collectors probably own. But i would also like to draw your attention once again to the elephant in the room which very few here seem to want to engage in discussion on. This is what appears to be a pre-WWII (at least) keris picit of Malaysian origin. I think your call of early 20th Century might well be correct, but judging the exact era when this keris was made seems difficult. It may be older for all i know. As such, at least from what i know, this is a rather rare specimen. Please, someone, show me another non-contemporary keris picit made in Malaysia. Show me one even not made in Jawa. I can't say i have ever seen one. So from a collector's perspective this seems to be a rather unusual item and as we all know, rare items in the keris world will demand high prices. Whether the pendok is solid gold or not might not be a driving factor in that equation.

[kai]

Hello Jean,

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

Well, showing better taste than gem-studded smartphones, etc.

I'd guess that it went back home into SE Asia though - it's not unusual for special pieces to reach prices that most western collectors are not used to...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

even though we usually try to keep the postings on this forum to only keris, i wouldn't mind having a look at that sword just to establish visually that the talismanic concept of picit markings was established in Bugis culture.

Here's the link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12141

The blade shows some typical Bugis features and I am confident that this blade originates from Sulawesi.

I will try to comment on picit from other areas later...

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Thanks Kai!