Persian Kard Dagger....Help With Translation Please!

CharlesS · 4th June 2010, 05:47 PM

It's kind of unusual to see script on a kard dagger, which is one of the things that attracted me to this one, along with the nice chieselling.

Can anyone make out the Arabic script in either side of the blade??

Thanks in adavance for any help!

Battara · 5th June 2010, 03:43 AM

I do love the chiseling. You have been a busy boy........

ALEX · 5th June 2010, 04:21 PM

Charles, the writing/script is quite common on high quality chiselled Persian kards of Safavid and Qajar periods. Most, if not all, do have it. Yours is the nice one, but I have some minor criticism:-). The chiselling on the blade, bolsters and tangband is cruder comparing to a split-palmette at the base of the central ridge at the spine. It does resemble Indian floral pattern more than the Persian, especially on the flowers. I do not think it was done by the same hand, or potentially in the same period. Below are some examples of good quality 18-19th C. chiselling, with script:-), on Persian kards.

CharlesS · 5th June 2010, 05:57 PM

Thanks for the insight Alex. I have no way of knowing about dating the chieselling, but I would certainly agree that the motifs are more Indian, and I should have probably more aptly called this an Indo-Persian kard at the very least.

BTW, your example is gorgeous!

CharlesS · 10th June 2010, 12:37 AM

Can no one help with translation here?

Where's Dom!

ward · 10th June 2010, 10:59 PM

[QUOTE=CharlesS]Can no one help with translation here?

The left side says Assistance from Allah and Victroy Near the right side mentiones Allah Ali but can't read it all

CharlesS · 11th June 2010, 12:30 AM

THANKS Ward!

Battara · 11th June 2010, 02:15 AM

Wait........I........see.............yes - "Made in China"

Hope this helps.

Philip · 11th June 2010, 06:34 AM

As Ward noted the right side is partly illegible, but from what's there, I can make out what might well be "Kalb 'Ali", with "Allah" above it.

Lew · 11th June 2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

As Ward noted the right side is partly illegible, but from what's there, I can make out what might well be "Kalb 'Ali", with "Allah" above it.

Charles

Found this

It is quite possible this dagger belong to him or was from his armoury? If you look closely at the dagger in his belt it does resemble your piece?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sir_Kalb_Ali_Khan,_Nawab_of_Rampur_(1832-1887).jpg

Sir Kalb Ali Khan, Nawab of Rampur (1832-1887).Hajji Nawab Kalb Ali Khan Bahadur (1834-23 March 1887) was a Nawab of the princely state of Rampur from 1865 to 1887. Succeeding his father, Sir Yusef Ali Khan Bahadur, he continued his father's good works, expanding the Rampur library, constructing the Jama Masjid for Rs.3 lakhs and encouraging the spread of education, architecture, literature and art in general. A gifted ruler, Sir Kalb Ali Khan was highly literate in Arabic and Persian and patronised scholars from across India and the Islamic world. He was a member of John Lawrence's council from 1878 to his death, attended the Delhi Durbar of Queen Victoria and was granted a personal salute of 17-guns. He was succeeded at his death in 1887, aged 53, by his son, Muhammad Mushtaq Ali Khan Bahadur. [1]

Dom · 12th June 2010, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Can anyone make out the Arabic script in either side of the blade??

no translation because it's issued from "Quran" and
with our best will, noway to find the exact translation, even, which one Surat and verse is concerning ...
we can't give you something "an average translation", that could hurt may be some one

here the reading in european script
- NASR MAINE ALLAH WA FATH MOBINE

à +

Dom

ALEX · 12th June 2010, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Charles

.. It is quite possible this dagger belong to him or was from his armoury? If you look closely at the dagger in his belt it does resemble your piece? ...

Lew/Philip, even though it looks like such, there are no attributions or references to Ali or Kalb Ali on these inscriptions.

They are Quranic invocations: "Assistance from Allah and Victory Near", and "New Conqueror and New Course".. (approximate translations).

Lew · 12th June 2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Lew/Philip, even though it looks like such, there are no attributions or references to Ali or Kalb Ali on these inscriptions.

They are Quranic invocations: "Assistance from Allah and Victory Near", and "New Conqueror and New Course".. (approximate translations).

Hey it was worth a shot.

ALEX · 12th June 2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Hey it was worth a shot.

Yes, it certainly was, Lew... and it always does! although it's increasingly difficult to determine based on a picture of sheethed kard, as it can be ANY kard. I also noticed that one had 3 pins on the top grip, opposite to two on Charle's:-) good run though!

Lew · 13th June 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, it certainly was, Lew... and it always does! although it's increasingly difficult to determine based on a picture of sheethed kard, as it can be ANY kard. I also noticed that one had 3 pins on the top grip, opposite to two on Charle's:-) good run though!

Alex

I noticed the three pins but it was hard to be sure the pic was blurry at high magnication.

lionzden · 14th June 2010, 07:42 PM

whichever is the translation, certainly a beautiful piece !!

4th June 2010, 05:47 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Persian Kard Dagger....Help With Translation Please! It's kind of unusual to see script on a kard dagger, which is one of the things that attracted me to this one, along with the nice chieselling. Can anyone make out the Arabic script in either side of the blade?? Thanks in adavance for any help! Attached Images

5th June 2010, 04:21 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Charles, the writing/script is quite common on high quality chiselled Persian kards of Safavid and Qajar periods. Most, if not all, do have it. Yours is the nice one, but I have some minor criticism:-). The chiselling on the blade, bolsters and tangband is cruder comparing to a split-palmette at the base of the central ridge at the spine. It does resemble Indian floral pattern more than the Persian, especially on the flowers. I do not think it was done by the same hand, or potentially in the same period. Below are some examples of good quality 18-19th C. chiselling, with script:-), on Persian kards. Attached Images

5th June 2010, 05:57 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks for the insight Alex. I have no way of knowing about dating the chieselling, but I would certainly agree that the motifs are more Indian, and I should have probably more aptly called this an Indo-Persian kard at the very least. BTW, your example is gorgeous! Last edited by CharlesS; 5th June 2010 at 09:19 PM.

5th June 2010, 03:43 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I do love the chiseling. You have been a busy boy........

10th June 2010, 12:37 AM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Can no one help with translation here? Where's Dom!

10th June 2010, 10:59 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	[QUOTE=CharlesS]Can no one help with translation here? The left side says Assistance from Allah and Victroy Near the right side mentiones Allah Ali but can't read it all

11th June 2010, 12:30 AM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	THANKS Ward!

11th June 2010, 02:15 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Wait........I........see.............yes - "Made in China" Hope this helps.

11th June 2010, 06:34 AM	#9
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	As Ward noted the right side is partly illegible, but from what's there, I can make out what might well be "Kalb 'Ali", with "Allah" above it.

14th June 2010, 07:42 PM	#16
lionzden Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 51	whichever is the translation, certainly a beautiful piece !!