....but is this ivory?

Green · 20th April 2016, 12:27 PM

I bought this small keris for a modest price mainly because I like the quranic carvings on the hilt and probably it is ivory. The seller swear that the hilt is ivory and not some form of plastic. I have a lot of misgivings as I don't see any clear ivory charateristics although one can see one obvious crack towards the end of the hilt. But it did not look like a typical ivory crack but more like due to heat expansion or such like.

If one looks closely enough we can see v small cracks on the lines of arabic /quranic calligraphy and a few others but nothing v obvious.

So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt?

mariusgmioc · 20th April 2016, 01:53 PM

Hello,

I doubt that anyone can tell you whether it is ivory or not based on the photos you provided and considering the condition of the hilt where just tiny spots of the base material are exposed.

However, the colour of the exposed areas seem to be consistent with antique elephant ivory.

Please keep it in mind that at the time this hilt was made, ivory was not subject to so many restriction like now and it was quite available (albeit it was always on the expensive side).

Now, why is the hilt so dark, I have no idea but it might be that is simply dirty or maybe it was painted?!

However, I am just a novice when it comes to kerises.

Roland_M · 20th April 2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt?

I think that Marius is right.
The hilt is definitely no bone.
The color of the highlighted area is typical for ivory.

Roland

David · 20th April 2016, 04:42 PM

Resin materials can match the color of antique ivory (or any color for that matter) quite easily. Marius is correct that these photos reveal nothing definitive. I do find much of the blackness on the hilt suspect as it looks applied in some areas, not simply the natural accumulation of dirt. Have you tried to remove the hilt yet? A good view up the pesi hole might be more revealing.

David · 20th April 2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt

Glue can be softened and loosened by an application of heat. Is the hilt also glued to the blade?

Bob A · 20th April 2016, 10:10 PM

I suspect the blackened hilt was done so as to provide a background against which the raised portion of the carving could more easily be read/distinguished. Wearing down the raised edges to remove the blacking would occur naturally through use, or could simply be polished off. I find it a visually pleasant artifice.

Green · 21st April 2016, 09:34 AM

David,

the hilt can be removed easily but it came off with the mendak so i could not do hot pin test at the base.

But I figured if the hilt is from resin material it doesn't really matter if it is destroyed by hot pin prick , so i decided to do a hot pin test on the black part of the hilt but it did not melt or gave any burnt mark. I felt quite good but then decided to do the same on one of my rencong hilts that I know was made from resin material. But the pin did not melt the resin either.

Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough.
So, still no conclusion and I'd leave it at that. Ignorance is bliss - as they say...

Roland_M · 21st April 2016, 12:48 PM

[QUOTE=Green]
Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough.
QUOTE]

I have an early 20th century Afghan choora with an orange Bakelite hilt, probably as an ivory imitation. Bakelite is a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin and resistant to heat. The hot pin test will be unsuccessful with Bakelite.

If you have a strong flashlight, you can hold it directly under the hilt and check, whether it is translucent or not. If the hilt is translucent without any structures inside, it is synthetic resin.

I do not believe in a resin, because it is very difficult, to create a resin with different shades of color like on your hilt.

Roland

Jean · 21st April 2016, 09:47 PM

This hilt was probably dyed in black, hence the color shades. If you have access to the pesi hole and if the selut hole is larger than the pesi hole, gently grind the pesi hole with a drilling bit and smell it: if it smells like burned bone it is ivory, if not it is resin.
A black light lamp should better be used for differentating ivory from resin as not all types of resins are translucent.
Regards

Green · 22nd April 2016, 05:37 AM

Jean,

That's a good idea about getting a bit of powder from the pesi hole. I'll get one of the hilt makers here to try and do that next month when I visit him... and see how it goes...

Green · 22nd April 2016, 05:50 AM

One further Q though,

Do resin or bakelite or other plastic type non ivory materials give cracks and hair line fractures like in the pics below?

Gustav · 22nd April 2016, 12:24 PM

Another possibility:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=fish+bone

David · 22nd April 2016, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

One further Q though,

Do resin or bakelite or other plastic type non ivory materials give cracks and hair line fractures like in the pics below?

I think it is less likely that this hilt is resin and perhaps more likely it is bone or maybe new ivory that has been artificially aged. It could still be old ivory, but i don't really see the point of all that added black stuff added to "age" the piece if it was really old. The black is definitely not natural aging IMO.
It shouldn't be too difficult to dissolve the glue that holds the mendak to the hilt. It would be what i would do if this were mine and then you could get a good look at the bottom of the hilt and maybe make a better determination.

Jean · 23rd April 2016, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I
It shouldn't be too difficult to dissolve the glue that holds the mendak to the hilt. It would be what i would do if this were mine and then you could get a good look at the bottom of the hilt and maybe make a better determination.

Hi David,
Which solvent would you use for dissolving epoxy glue or Superglue? I recently experienced that white spiririt does not dissolve nor even softens the traditional resin used for gluing hilts, it needs heating to about 100 °C.
Regards

Green · 6th May 2016, 05:20 PM

i finally managed to take off the mendak from the hilt. not me exactly but this is how it happened. I brought the keris to a few keris and scabbard and hilt makers here and many were of the opinion that it is either ivory or antler but all said to confirm it i had to take off the mendak/pendokok.but nobody wanted to try to take it off....until yesterday when i met one master carver here.

i explained that the mendak is glued to the hilt, he took one look and said sure it can be taken off and proceeded to use brute force without even by your leave

and i was worried sick that he would tear off the delicate silver mendak but walla! he did it without any damage to the mendak... the glue was so dry and old that a strong force did manage to pry it off. but i wouldn't reccommend this method to anyone and i probably won't show any more keris with glued mendak to him

here are the photo of the end of the hilt and he confirmed that it is indeed ivory. an old ivory. So i'm pretty pleased....

but if any of you have a dissenting opinion i'd be happy to hear it.

20th April 2016, 12:27 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	....but is this ivory? I bought this small keris for a modest price mainly because I like the quranic carvings on the hilt and probably it is ivory. The seller swear that the hilt is ivory and not some form of plastic. I have a lot of misgivings as I don't see any clear ivory charateristics although one can see one obvious crack towards the end of the hilt. But it did not look like a typical ivory crack but more like due to heat expansion or such like. If one looks closely enough we can see v small cracks on the lines of arabic /quranic calligraphy and a few others but nothing v obvious. So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt? Attached Images

22nd April 2016, 05:50 AM	#11
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	One further Q though, Do resin or bakelite or other plastic type non ivory materials give cracks and hair line fractures like in the pics below? Attached Images

6th May 2016, 05:20 PM	#15
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	i finally managed to take off the mendak from the hilt. not me exactly but this is how it happened. I brought the keris to a few keris and scabbard and hilt makers here and many were of the opinion that it is either ivory or antler but all said to confirm it i had to take off the mendak/pendokok.but nobody wanted to try to take it off....until yesterday when i met one master carver here. i explained that the mendak is glued to the hilt, he took one look and said sure it can be taken off and proceeded to use brute force without even by your leave and i was worried sick that he would tear off the delicate silver mendak but walla! he did it without any damage to the mendak... the glue was so dry and old that a strong force did manage to pry it off. but i wouldn't reccommend this method to anyone and i probably won't show any more keris with glued mendak to him here are the photo of the end of the hilt and he confirmed that it is indeed ivory. an old ivory. So i'm pretty pleased.... but if any of you have a dissenting opinion i'd be happy to hear it. Attached Images

20th April 2016, 01:53 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, I doubt that anyone can tell you whether it is ivory or not based on the photos you provided and considering the condition of the hilt where just tiny spots of the base material are exposed. However, the colour of the exposed areas seem to be consistent with antique elephant ivory. Please keep it in mind that at the time this hilt was made, ivory was not subject to so many restriction like now and it was quite available (albeit it was always on the expensive side). Now, why is the hilt so dark, I have no idea but it might be that is simply dirty or maybe it was painted?! However, I am just a novice when it comes to kerises.

20th April 2016, 04:42 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Resin materials can match the color of antique ivory (or any color for that matter) quite easily. Marius is correct that these photos reveal nothing definitive. I do find much of the blackness on the hilt suspect as it looks applied in some areas, not simply the natural accumulation of dirt. Have you tried to remove the hilt yet? A good view up the pesi hole might be more revealing.

20th April 2016, 10:10 PM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	I suspect the blackened hilt was done so as to provide a background against which the raised portion of the carving could more easily be read/distinguished. Wearing down the raised edges to remove the blacking would occur naturally through use, or could simply be polished off. I find it a visually pleasant artifice.

21st April 2016, 09:34 AM	#7
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	David, the hilt can be removed easily but it came off with the mendak so i could not do hot pin test at the base. But I figured if the hilt is from resin material it doesn't really matter if it is destroyed by hot pin prick , so i decided to do a hot pin test on the black part of the hilt but it did not melt or gave any burnt mark. I felt quite good but then decided to do the same on one of my rencong hilts that I know was made from resin material. But the pin did not melt the resin either. Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough. So, still no conclusion and I'd leave it at that. Ignorance is bliss - as they say...

21st April 2016, 12:48 PM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	[QUOTE=Green] Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough. QUOTE] I have an early 20th century Afghan choora with an orange Bakelite hilt, probably as an ivory imitation. Bakelite is a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin and resistant to heat. The hot pin test will be unsuccessful with Bakelite. If you have a strong flashlight, you can hold it directly under the hilt and check, whether it is translucent or not. If the hilt is translucent without any structures inside, it is synthetic resin. I do not believe in a resin, because it is very difficult, to create a resin with different shades of color like on your hilt. Roland

21st April 2016, 09:47 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This hilt was probably dyed in black, hence the color shades. If you have access to the pesi hole and if the selut hole is larger than the pesi hole, gently grind the pesi hole with a drilling bit and smell it: if it smells like burned bone it is ivory, if not it is resin. A black light lamp should better be used for differentating ivory from resin as not all types of resins are translucent. Regards

22nd April 2016, 05:37 AM	#10
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Jean, That's a good idea about getting a bit of powder from the pesi hole. I'll get one of the hilt makers here to try and do that next month when I visit him... and see how it goes...

22nd April 2016, 12:24 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Another possibility: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=fish+bone