Question: Chinese spears

[KuKulzA28]

I have some questions about the "king of the Chinese weapons".

I myself am going to order some spearheads from a Taiwanese smith I know, and it brought up questions in my head I hadn't considered - namely about the construction of traditional spears, and the variants.

What sort of shafts
Modern wushu (the martial arts inspired exhibition dance performances) is a very poor example of what was traditionally used for murder. I doubt waxwood was preferred because it's so bendy. I'm sure rattan or bamboo may have been used at times, but unless carefully selected and treated, might not be the best material. Any idea what kinds of bamboo were preferred? So hardwoods. Did they use oak, did they have ash? What about so-called "ironwood"? Were the shafts reinforced with metal bands or wire, or just left plain? Or was that just a personal choice.... ?

Did they have butt-spikes?
I know Taiwanese aborigine spears typically had butt-spikes so if the spear was standing vertically, the moisture wouldn't rot the shaft (though the butt-spike would rust). Did the Chinese typically do this for spears? I know they did for pole-arms such as the yanyuedao...

What were the most typical variants?
I know of the "snake-head" spear head which has become a popular style in martial arts schools, the simple diamond shaped spear. Was it popular for it's lightweight and simplicity or because it was more effective? I know there were other variants such as wavy like a keris, or having a spike to hook shields... but was there a systematic categorization, or were there many unique/regional variants? I know the Qing dynasty had official regulations on bows, pole-arms, and sabers.... not sure if the same extended to spears... and I doubt they ever extended to local militias which armed themselves with whatever they could or were provided by a local headman/magistrate/prefect/etc.

What were the dimensions of typical examples?
I've read a translation of 長鎗法選 (long spear method selection) by 程宗猷 of the Ming Dynasty and they describe the changqiang (longspear) as 10.8 feet. Each Chinese foot at the time was about .3 meters, making that 3.24 meters or 10.6 feet in length. Poles used to train spear-fighting in southern styles such as Wing Chun are usually about 8 to 9 feet long (2.44-2.74 m). I understand spears were used by just about every fighting man back then, from thugs, bandits, and pirates, to militia, soldiers, guards, and duelists.... so there's undoubtedly variation... but for a personal spear of a civilian combatant such as a local martial artist, was there a preferred length for 1v1 or 1 vs many sort of combat? I would guess 6 to 8 feet (1.8-2.44 m), because too long and it becomes cumbersome like a pike. Back to official Qing regulations, were there government specified lengths to spears and shafts?

When did the practice of having red tassels come about?
I saw a picture of an old supposedly pirate's spear with a red tassel, though I'm not sure if that's a later add on. I understand tassels have been seen on different weapons of different cultures which can be distracting (and maybe other less practical purpose)... as well as helping to soak up blood to prevent the shaft from becoming slippery or too sticky... Any info on the origins of this practice when it comes to spears?

Do you guys have pictures of your Chinese spears to show their construction?


THANKS!

[Timo Nieminen]

Hafts: From late Ming literature, a number of woods were used, such as 檕條木 (ji wood), 牛觔木 (cow pound/catty/jin wood), 茶條木 (tea wood), 米枯木 (rice dried-out wood), 柘條木 (zhe wood; some thorny tree?), 白蠟條木 (white wax wood) and 竹 (bamboo). What the English names for most are, I don't know. Bamboo was common for military spears. But more brittle. This is from 長鎗法選, so you have seen this info before. Perhaps another reader can identify the woods?

AFAIK, rattan was used, too (at least in more recent times). Laminated bamboo, or bamboo/wood composites have been used from the Bronze Age until the 18th century or later.

The haft should taper towards the tip. Using a sapling or bamboo (or rattan) will give you a tapered haft automatically.

Tibetan spears were often wrapped with an iron spiral. I've not seen Chinese examples like this (including in art). Some composite spears had their hafts wrapped with silk thread and lacquered (both Bronze Age and recent).

Note that both bamboo and waxwood were used. Just use a thick enough waxwood, and it won't be wushu-flexible. Waxwood should be an excellent wood for a spear haft.

Buttspikes: From art, these seem common enough.

Length: 7-8' is a good length for a personal spear. 6' haft + head is OK. Military spears are often longer.

Heads: Qing art usually shows simple diamond heads on military spears. I will look again when I can to look for butts and tassels.

The basic Chinese heads one sees often, including those sold as "Revolutionary War pikes", look like a common mid-late 19th century head.

[Neil]

Great topic. I am in the process of putting together a nice kung fu practice spear with an antique head on it now.

Here are my thoughts on your topics.

Shafts - I think Timo had a lot of good info. Also, I have seen in several period photos that waxwood appeared to be the wood being used for "commoners" spear shafts. I bet the use of one material or another was also relative availability in the area. It may also have been relative to your pocketbook so to speak. I see fancier pole arms with well finished shafts, while more village like spears have functionally finished/bumpy surfaced staffs like many Chinese martial art practitioners use today. A nice mid thickness waxwood staff has both the strength and potential flex to absorb impact shock rather than break. That is what I am using on my spear and have had good results practicing with them for years.

Butt spikes- I have seen them on other pole arm examples but not spears. I would not count it out though. From my experience variability seems to be the norm in Chinese weapons.

Length- Back to the variation being the norm comment. As you can see in the photos there are long, short, and in between.

Tassels- Good question. I have seen photos of them in use from late Qing through WW2

Pictures - 1. Presented as confiscated weapons from "Manchrian bandits". 2. I think I pulled this off a Chinese site. Looks like Warlord era to me or Spear Society. Could be wrong.

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks Timo and Neil!

Yes I have seen the various names listed in 長鎗法選 but I wasn't sure what the English names are... for example I doubt a wood dealer in my area would know what a cow pound wood is... hell I don't know either. So I was hoping someone could point me to their english names or the scientific names. Large bamboo doesn't grow much around here, and long bamboo poles and shipping can be expensive... but it may be worth it cause as you noted, they are naturally tapered.

I'm a bit confused. I have heard of a 白蜡杆, which is apparently used for spears and poles/staves. However, I have seen that translated as Chinese ash, and as white waxwood. Fraxinus/ash does usually make for quality spearshafts... but so does thick enough waxwood apparently (I've only ever seen flimsy wushu ones being sold, sadly). 白蜡 literally translated to white wax... but here they say it's ash.



For now I have a 7' ash pole which I can painstakingly taper with a knife if I so choose.

Anyone know of a good source of quality waxwood poles?

I have never seen an antique chinese spear with a butt-spike or butt-cap either, but I would imagine they existed...

Hmm, so would the tassels be a newer Qing dynasty innovation?
I wouldn't rule that out... I mean, Chinese cold weaponry did not stop developing in the Qing, in fact I think there were interesting shifts, such as the big popularity of double blades (double jian, double dao, butterfly swords), the innovation of the ox-tail saber, and the widespread use of the da-dao as an official weapon, symbol of Chinese nationalism, and a symbol of the older days of the Ming dynasty, etc.

[fearn]

So far as waxwood goes, it also depends on the diameter. The one I handled was well over one inch thick at the butt, and its problem was that it was too heavy, not that it bent. According to my teacher at the time, he'd had a heck of a time cutting and smoothing it, because it was so hard.

The Muye Dobo Tongji (available in English as Sang Kim's Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea) has a lot to say about what makes a good spear, and much of it seems to be good. AFAIK, the material originally comes from Chinese sources. One important point is that you don't want an unbending spear, because it will be quite good at transmitting shock into your hands if you hit anything. A shaft that springs a little will make you much happier.

You can also get some good advice from Society for Creative Anachronism sources.

The final bit of advice is that the longest spear you want is something that can fit in your car, which is probably no more than about seven feet tip to butt. There's a nice trick to laying a spear down beside the passenger-side seats that you'd do well to learn, and I'd also suggest making a sheath, so that you don't put a hole in your car when you stop suddenly. You can, of course, make it longer, but then you'll need the red tassel, because the end is going to be hanging out in traffic. I personally have a modern spear that's a shade under 7" long, and it's a great length for practicing indoors and possibly home defense.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Hmm, so would the tassels be a newer Qing dynasty innovation?
I wouldn't rule that out... I mean, Chinese cold weaponry did not stop developing in the Qing, in fact I think there were interesting shifts, such as the big popularity of double blades (double jian, double dao, butterfly swords), the innovation of the ox-tail saber, and the widespread use of the da-dao as an official weapon, symbol of Chinese nationalism, and a symbol of the older days of the Ming dynasty, etc.

I think some of these changes were a result of civilianisation of weapons. The military weapons were cannon for artillery, spear and musket for infantry, and bow and sword for cavalry. The military solution to a spear is another spear, or arrow or bullet.

What is the civilian solution to a spear? Either carry your own spear, but that isn't convenient. So carry a double weapon. Double dao is much better against a spear than a single dao. Much easier to carry than a spear. So a good civilian solution, given the knowledge of how to use it, and hopefully one doesn't run into a skilled spearman.

The oxtail dao is optimised for slicing unarmoured opponents. Good for the civilian martial artist. In principle, it might have made for a nice light cavalry sword, but was not adopted as such.

I don't know if or how dadao fit into this.

Increased dependence on militia blurs the lines between civilian and military, and contributed to this civilianisation of arms.

[KuKulzA28]

fearn, the car advice is gold, thanks
I will need to get myself a few waxwood shafts...
Good point about the rigidity vs flexibility thing, I think my ash pole should be flexible enough.

I heard of Muye Dobo Tongji. I haven't read a translation myself however. I have seen the youtube videos, and they seem to be doing a good job researching and reviving the ancient tradition.


Timo, great points. Aside from the the civilization of weapons, I think also the growing reliance of militias during a time of increasing ineptitude in government means also that local martial arts could have had growing influence over the armaments of the locals. Not to mention the diffusion of martial arts styles as well... for example, the Plum Blossom spear form being found in Hung Gar, far south of its origins in Shandong I think...


EDIT: slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

[Timo Nieminen]

The relevant spear material from Muye Dobo Tongji. This is from the Kim translation, and the Chinese is not available, only the English. I believe this is translated into English from a Korean translation, rather than directly from the original Chinese.

(a) The best wood is yew. Spruce is too flexible, and bamboo is too soft.

(b) Jillyo wood is best, then mulberry, then armor maple. Nothing else can be used.

(c) The best wood is jumok (ju wood, might be white oak), then bipa wood which is similar to oak, then palm tree.

A couple of other woods are named (only Korean names are given). From the further description, one might be white waxwood.

Jillyo might be 柘條木 (zhe wood), it is described as thorny.

Bamboo pole and laminated bamboo spears were used.

Butt spikes are used. Pointed, and copper (bronze?). All spears, except bamboo spears, are shown with butt spikes in the illustrations.

[Timo Nieminen]

Spears in Qing art. Source: This (and the rest of the volumes) is the source.

(a) 18th century, Luoluo people in Yunnan. Spears about 8' long, heads might be single-edged. Steel/iron butt spikes.

(b) 1793, war against Gurkhas. Spears are about 10' long, heads are long, maybe 10" blades, parallel sides. Red tassels at base of head, no butt spikes.

(c) 1829, suppression of rebellion in Xinjiang. Spears as above.

(d) Some enlarged details of some paintings are shown, but the sources are not given. One series, which appear to be about the defeat of the Zunghars, has spears of about 10', red tassels, diamond-shaped heads. In other details, spears are shown with no tassels, a sleeve about the blade end of the haft, and butt spikes.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

[KuKulzA28]

Seems like butt-caps/spikes come and go...

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

My impression was similar to yours that it was something like this

[fearn]

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

From reading bits of the English translation (http://www.chineselongsword.com/speartranslation.shtml), I'd say that the general idea is that inside/outside are based on which foot is forward, which varies depending on which stance you are in and where the front of your body is facing. It appears to assume that your opponent is standing with right foot forward, but that's just in the free samples they provide.

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

My personal favorite introduction to the spear is from Cold Steel (www.coldsteel.com/files/Riposte/The-Spear.pdf). It demystifies spears in a hurry, and it has the bonus of being free.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

Hmm, that sounds like something my shigong has told me, in swordplay, that the front is the "tiger side" and the back is the "dragon side"... and in fist-fighting (or any melee combat) there's various advantages to taking the opponent's center-line (tiger-side/inside) or going to their outside and flanking them. Perhaps this is what they are referrign to like you said...

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

I did notice that. Not sure why the artist would have depicted the spears so short when they were meant to be training with a spear about 10.6' in length.

Originally Posted by fearn

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

I am personally unsure about the translators videos. Like you've pointed out, some of his interpretation seems awkward, clumsy, or strange. It also seems very rigid, he can definitely demonstrate slowly without making it "blocky". But all the same, I am thankful someone is taking the time and effort to translate these old manuals.

[KuKulzA28]

Currently reading 長鎗法選 and deeply analyzing very single bit.
Will share my thoughts when I am all done. Going to test the principles and techniques described with a compliant partner. I got two long ash poles, each with it's "spearhead" of foam padding and tennis-ball core wrapped in duct tape. It should have approximately the same heft and balance of a legit spear... After we're comfortable we'll put on the sparring helmets and test it non-compliant.

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.




Anyone have art work or period photos of old Chinese spears and/or spearheads?
Or, better yet, pictures from your own collections?


EDIT:
This is a pretty good series from Hong Kong, in this video of Xing Yi Quan (no surprise) there's spear work. They use the same terminology as 長鎗法選.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.

"Inside" and "outside" in modern unarmed martial arts are, in my experience, defined by inside or outside the lead hand. In the usual right-handed stance, with left leg and left hand forwards, to the left of my left hand is outside, to the right is inside. My arm being where it is, this corresponds to front of body/centreline being inside, back/flank being outside. It isn't the target area that matters; it's which side of the front arm the attacker comes in on.

Extending this to spear (as I did), it is which side of the spear which matters. Practically, there is little difference between aiming at the belly and aiming at the side if both attacks go in on the same side of the spear. "Inside my circle" and "outside my circle" sound OK as translations.

[KuKulzA28]

Yes I agree with your explanation, I was trying to say the same thing but apparently not well enough. The "inside circle" and "outside circle" translation confused me, but when I read the actual Chinese I realized it was just referring to the inside and outside as me and you have described. It's not written as one would speak normally but in a more literary style I suppose...

A few terms:

挐 - ná – to apprehend / take - palm down - Jack Chen translates this as parry
攔 - lán – to block / obstruct - Palm up - Jack Chen translates this as sweep
扎 - zhá – penetrate / pierce / thrust
提 - tí – lift / carry
纏 - chán – to wind / wrap
顛 - diān – to jolt (I wonder if this has to do with 迸)

Being mainly a kinesthetic learner, playing out the drills and sequences in the manual has helped me. It's actually a pretty succinct and well made manual. It explains the 八槍母 (Eight Spear Mother) - 8 movements which all spear techniques are essentially derived from. Then it describes the 六合原論併註 (Six Unifications Original Theory Combination Annotation). 六合 is also often translated as Six Harmonies. These 6 sequences build on one another, introducing a new type of tactic in each. The 原論 Original Theory is an interesting section with advice on situational things. Then there is 散劄拔萃 which Jack Chen translates as Spear Combat Drills.. it's not quite that, but whatever. The manual goes on to explain the various techniques named (often poetically as they often are) in the 六合 section. The a discussion on the construction of the long spear, and lastly in-depth description of the uses and executions of various stances. In summary, it goes over what these Henan folks consider to be the essentials of good long-spear combat.

I'll be comparing this to the E'mei spear which is also on Jack Chen's website. I've skimmed it and it seems to emphasize slightly different things, but both pretty straight forward.

I think it bears remembering that the 長鎗法選 (long spear manual) is from Henan area, and the Henan, Hebei, and Shandong provinces were the birthplaces of many of the well-known and respected martial art styles. It seems Henan-Hubei-Shandong, and Guangdong-Fujian, were really significant regions of Chinese melee fighting development. Just to emphasize my point, you have Mantis, Eagle claw, Taiji, BaGua, Xing Yi, Baji, etc. all coming from the North in those 3 provinces. Bak Mei, Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Mantis, Dog, Li, Choy Gar, Choy Li Fut, and Wing Chun all come mainly from the southern region. It doesn't surprise me one bit to see such a stream-lined, K.I.S.S. manual on the long-spear coming from Henan, where there was much combat but also inter-influences(?)/cross-pollination of martial tactics and methods... because while martial arts were often a closely guarded skill, skilled martial artists often gain more from cross-training and adopting superior techniques and realizing principles than trying to kill one another off...

[fearn]

With regard to Na and Lan: are we talking about something like palm up and palm down on the lead hand on the spear? I know in bagua that some teachers make a big deal out of yin to yang (palm down to palm up) and yang to yin (palm up to palm down) changes as part of generating power.

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

With regard to Na and Lan: are we talking about something like palm up and palm down on the lead hand on the spear? I know in bagua that some teachers make a big deal out of yin to yang (palm down to palm up) and yang to yin (palm up to palm down) changes as part of generating power.

F

Yes! Exactly.

Na is palm down, and Lan is palm up. For the spear, if you have your left hand forward, your spear would lan or na, left or right, to block incoming stabs as guided by your left hand.

Lan is also used to mean blocking in some Chinese swordplay.

I have little knowledge of Bagua itself so I can't really comment on it, though the yin-yang balance and duality is heavily emphasized throughout Chinese culture.

[KuKulzA28]

I've been experimenting with oak, ash, and waxwood.
Tapering by hand gets tedious, but I guess compared to carving knife handles, clubs, and making bowing, it's not so bad
Oak seems too brittle, but the 8' tapered oak stave at 5 lbs is good for strength and form training.

Question:
Does anyone have genuine antique Chinese spears (intact) and can tell me how far the point of balance deviates from the center?

I want to get it as authentic as possible.

[Gavin Nugent]

G'day Vinny,

I have a complete old one here.

It is 87 inches long with a POB at 41.5" from the butt.
It is a little under 4 lbs
1&3/4" across the butt
1" wide below the socket.

I hope it helps.

Gavin

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks Gav, hmmm, that sounds like good specs... so point of balance justa little behind mid-point...

I'm going to try to emulate that... going to get a thick piece of rattan, waxwood, and quality ash and see how I do