Dagger from Crete (?) - for comment +translation plea

Martin Lubojacky · 25th February 2016, 08:54 AM

Hello,
I would appreciate any comments - this kind of daggers was not/is not my field.

The dagger is 57 cms long now (the tip was broken and I adjusted it). The pictures are from the middle of restoring process, the blede was extremly rusty (I also used tanin). The blade is made of laminated steel, nicely springy.

I think it comes from Crtete, but I did not see so long Crete knife till now (but I do not have literature about such weapons).

Any idea about the text on the blade ?
Thanks,
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 25th February 2016, 08:56 AM

just addtinional picture

Martin Lubojacky · 25th February 2016, 09:00 AM

addtitional info:

Original length could be cca 63 cms, collar on the blade is made of lead

ariel · 25th February 2016, 12:12 PM

Martin,
Cretan daggers that I know always have a specific engraved ornament ( large, convoluted, floral) and are signed in Greek. This one has neither. It seems to me that there is a date, 1301(????), that would not be consistent with the already independent Greece. Also, it is yataghan-ish.
I would guess it is a Turkish or Balkan Muslim yataghan bichaq.
Having cleaned it up, you might consider stopping with further restoration efforts. IMHO.

Martin Lubojacky · 25th February 2016, 12:45 PM

Thank you for your standpoint Ariel. Some times it is really better to leave some parts unrestored - in a state, as it was found. I somehow still cannot decide (re the handle).

As far as the origin is concerned, the seller told me it was allegedly from Crete ... Autonomous Cretan state was founded in 1898, so it may be written in "osmanli" ?? I think, that, except of what you said, there could also be two signs, which could spek for Crete - the shape of handle (shape of the pommel + shape of the lead collar) and (I feel it so) the shape of the blade.

But you are right - the engraving is "yataganish" ......

Rashka Vatnik · 25th February 2016, 04:09 PM

Form of the blade is not Cretan.

Emanuel · 25th February 2016, 04:52 PM

Interesting.

The scracthes on the blade a re very crude imitation of the usual yataghan inscriptions. The blade profile is very similar to the Ahmed Tekelu yataghans

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072

The punch work on the spine is similar to what is seen on Laz bicagi / Black Sea Yataghan. Considering the population exchanges with Cretan populations and the Pontic region, this might explain the Cretan connection.

Martin Lubojacky · 27th February 2016, 07:25 PM

Thank you Emanuel, Rashka and Ariel for your comments.

Islamic 1301 is equal 1884 Gregorian. That time Crete was under the Ottoman Empiry (I apologize if I am wrong). I think that determinant for the place of use is the style of the handle (more or less generally). Could it be, that it was produced by Turkish artisan in Crete ? (I think there is written Ali on the blade, but this still nobody confirmed ...)
Regards,
Martin

ariel · 27th February 2016, 08:01 PM

Obviously, it was produced by a Muslim artisan.
Whether his workshop was located in Izmir, Sarajevo or Chania cannot be determined.
But when we are talking about Cretan knives, we mean a very different thing. Surely, it was influenced by the Ottoman progenitor, but Christian Cretan Greeks modified it extensively and created their own very specific style. And I cannot see any evidence of it in your example.

Martin Lubojacky · 27th February 2016, 09:36 PM

Maybe the shape of the handle and the collar ? I spent 3 years in Turkey and I did not see asuch handle here, except one in Izmir

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th February 2016, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

just addtinional picture

Salaams Martin Lubojacky It appears to say.. Ali Hussain...and then the date...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Martin Lubojacky · 28th February 2016, 01:39 PM

Thank you Ibrahim al Balooshi

eftihis · 28th February 2016, 11:33 PM

It is definitely a cretan dagger of late manufacture...
I have 2 comments. First the unnecessary length (counter-productive!) for a knife, it is clearly a "status statment". Like the very long "zybek" yataghans, and a sign of late manufacture.
Second, it is interesting that cretan daggers, by 1800 developed a distinctive shape. This development corresponds with the development of the cretan muslim identity. The Cretans that became muslims created a community that although spoke greek, they were neither Greeks nor Turks! After the Greek revolution of 1821, the cretan muslims started to became more and more "turks", and in my opinion this is reflectεd in this dagger, that looks more "turkish" than cretan daggers of previous decades.

Martin Lubojacky · 29th February 2016, 10:12 AM

Eftihis,

Thank you very much for interesting information

Best regards,
Martin

ariel · 29th February 2016, 02:50 PM

Eftihis,
What specific features make you believe it's Cretan origin?

eftihis · 1st March 2016, 12:24 AM

Ariel mainly is the shape of the handle as you see it in this photo

eftihis · 1st March 2016, 12:30 AM

But have in mind that cretan artisans made various types of blades. These 4 are from the same artisan.

Martin Lubojacky · 8th March 2016, 10:25 AM

Dear Ibrahiim,

I just consulted with expert on osmanlı writing. He said there was written "Osman Han" (which is the name) on the blade ...
Regards,
Martin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th March 2016, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Dear Ibrahiim,

I just consulted with expert on osmanlı writing. He said there was written "Osman Han" (which is the name) on the blade ...
Regards,
Martin

Salaams Martin Lubojacky... It is arabic and its says Ali Hassan or ali Hussain and it is dated ...Under the date it says sennah or year and above that line is the date 1301.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Martin Lubojacky · 9th March 2016, 10:22 AM

Thank you once more Ibrahiim al Balooshi

25th February 2016, 08:54 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Dagger from Crete (?) - for comment +translation plea Hello, I would appreciate any comments - this kind of daggers was not/is not my field. The dagger is 57 cms long now (the tip was broken and I adjusted it). The pictures are from the middle of restoring process, the blede was extremly rusty (I also used tanin). The blade is made of laminated steel, nicely springy. I think it comes from Crtete, but I did not see so long Crete knife till now (but I do not have literature about such weapons). Any idea about the text on the blade ? Thanks, Martin Attached Images

25th February 2016, 08:56 AM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Dagger from Crete (?) - for comment +translation plea II just addtinional picture Attached Images

25th February 2016, 04:52 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Interesting. The scracthes on the blade a re very crude imitation of the usual yataghan inscriptions. The blade profile is very similar to the Ahmed Tekelu yataghans http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072 The punch work on the spine is similar to what is seen on Laz bicagi / Black Sea Yataghan. Considering the population exchanges with Cretan populations and the Pontic region, this might explain the Cretan connection. Attached Images

1st March 2016, 12:24 AM	#16
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Ariel mainly is the shape of the handle as you see it in this photo Attached Images

1st March 2016, 12:30 AM	#17
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	But have in mind that cretan artisans made various types of blades. These 4 are from the same artisan. Attached Images

25th February 2016, 09:00 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	addtitional info: Original length could be cca 63 cms, collar on the blade is made of lead

25th February 2016, 12:12 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Martin, Cretan daggers that I know always have a specific engraved ornament ( large, convoluted, floral) and are signed in Greek. This one has neither. It seems to me that there is a date, 1301(????), that would not be consistent with the already independent Greece. Also, it is yataghan-ish. I would guess it is a Turkish or Balkan Muslim yataghan bichaq. Having cleaned it up, you might consider stopping with further restoration efforts. IMHO.

25th February 2016, 12:45 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you for your standpoint Ariel. Some times it is really better to leave some parts unrestored - in a state, as it was found. I somehow still cannot decide (re the handle). As far as the origin is concerned, the seller told me it was allegedly from Crete ... Autonomous Cretan state was founded in 1898, so it may be written in "osmanli" ?? I think, that, except of what you said, there could also be two signs, which could spek for Crete - the shape of handle (shape of the pommel + shape of the lead collar) and (I feel it so) the shape of the blade. But you are right - the engraving is "yataganish" ......

25th February 2016, 04:09 PM	#6
Rashka Vatnik Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 4	Form of the blade is not Cretan.

27th February 2016, 07:25 PM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you Emanuel, Rashka and Ariel for your comments. Islamic 1301 is equal 1884 Gregorian. That time Crete was under the Ottoman Empiry (I apologize if I am wrong). I think that determinant for the place of use is the style of the handle (more or less generally). Could it be, that it was produced by Turkish artisan in Crete ? (I think there is written Ali on the blade, but this still nobody confirmed ...) Regards, Martin

27th February 2016, 08:01 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Obviously, it was produced by a Muslim artisan. Whether his workshop was located in Izmir, Sarajevo or Chania cannot be determined. But when we are talking about Cretan knives, we mean a very different thing. Surely, it was influenced by the Ottoman progenitor, but Christian Cretan Greeks modified it extensively and created their own very specific style. And I cannot see any evidence of it in your example.

27th February 2016, 09:36 PM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Maybe the shape of the handle and the collar ? I spent 3 years in Turkey and I did not see asuch handle here, except one in Izmir

28th February 2016, 01:39 PM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you Ibrahim al Balooshi

28th February 2016, 11:33 PM	#13
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	It is definitely a cretan dagger of late manufacture... I have 2 comments. First the unnecessary length (counter-productive!) for a knife, it is clearly a "status statment". Like the very long "zybek" yataghans, and a sign of late manufacture. Second, it is interesting that cretan daggers, by 1800 developed a distinctive shape. This development corresponds with the development of the cretan muslim identity. The Cretans that became muslims created a community that although spoke greek, they were neither Greeks nor Turks! After the Greek revolution of 1821, the cretan muslims started to became more and more "turks", and in my opinion this is reflectεd in this dagger, that looks more "turkish" than cretan daggers of previous decades.

29th February 2016, 10:12 AM	#14
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Eftihis, Thank you very much for interesting information Best regards, Martin

29th February 2016, 02:50 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Eftihis, What specific features make you believe it's Cretan origin?

8th March 2016, 10:25 AM	#18
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Dear Ibrahiim, I just consulted with expert on osmanlı writing. He said there was written "Osman Han" (which is the name) on the blade ... Regards, Martin

9th March 2016, 10:22 AM	#20
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you once more Ibrahiim al Balooshi