Nias Keris (?)

[Alam Shah]

With reference from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg 78 (which was taken from Den Indonesiske Kris -et symbolladet vaben), the picture showed a short dagger (sheathed), from Nias, Sumatra. The fitting does look a little keris-like. However the blade although it's double edged, there is no flaring base area and no ganja. Should this weapon still called a keris?

[David]

My vote would be probably not, but it is hard to say not being able to see the blade.

[tunggulametung]

here is link to photo gallery own by fellow forum member that showing the blade:
http://picasaweb.google.nl/mbloebaum/046NiasKeris#

I think an interpretation to keris, but more a badik blade with keris style sheath. Hard to decide, but maybe not

[drdavid]

This does not have the essential features of even a keris like object. The sheath is unusual but still similar to those found on most keris but the blade simply isn't. To me this looks like one of those historical attributions where someone was trying to say there were keris from all the regions around Jawa and here is one from Nias.
david

[David]

Agreed. I would not call it a keris.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

here is link to photo gallery own by fellow forum member that showing the blade:
http://picasaweb.google.nl/mbloebaum/046NiasKeris#

I think an interpretation to keris, but more a badik blade with keris style sheath. Hard to decide, but maybe not

Thanks for the link..
A friend in Singapore, does have one of these Nias dagger. Looking at it, my opinion was, it cannot be called a keris, because in lacks the basic features of a keris, it simply does not qualify.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by drdavid

This does not have the essential features of even a keris like object. The sheath is unusual but still similar to those found on most keris but the blade simply isn't. To me this looks like one of those historical attributions where someone was trying to say there were keris from all the regions around Jawa and here is one from Nias.
david

Yes, I have the same opinion, too..

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Agreed. I would not call it a keris.

Perhaps, Bambang Harsrinuksmo when added it into Ensiklopedi Keris, might not have seen one. Instead, based on external information made the inclusion. There is no photo or sketch of the Nias blade presented in the book.

Ensiklopedi Keris is a good resource on Javanese keris, but does fall short on regional information from the Malay Archipelago, although there are limited attempts to include it.

[BluErf]

Would be useful to know what native Nias people call it.

[ThePepperSkull]

It may not be a Keris, but it in a very beautiful shape. I wonder what the Nias call it, and what significance it holds to the culture.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

Not my area..... but I believe that Maurice's piece, shown via tunggulametung's link, is referred to as: Se/Si Euli.

Here's my contribution. Sorry for the bad quality..... but I haven't time.

Best,

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody,

Not my area..... but I believe that Maurice's piece, shown via tunggulametung's link, is referred to as: Se/Si Euli.

Here's my contribution. Sorry for the bad quality..... but I haven't time.

Best,

Yes, I've heard it called Se/Si Euli. The picture is fine, but typically, the blades that I've seen, 3 examples (at different times and places), all sports a similar blade like Maurice's example, without pamor. Although, blade shapes are somewhat a little different. Your hilt and blade are very different. The hilt with a human figure, looks somewhat Batak-like to me. Perhaps, an example of a newer adaptation of the weapon. The hilt, ('Nio' the general term used for a hilt in Nias).. does not looks like the general Nias archetype.

Si Euli examples can be found in Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, pg 123-124.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Yes, I've heard it called Se/Si Euli. The picture is fine, but typically, the blades that I've seen, 3 examples (at different times and places), all sports a similar blade like Maurice's example, without pamor. Although, blade shapes are somewhat a little different. Your hilt and blade are very different. The hilt with a human figure, looks somewhat Batak-like to me. Perhaps, an example of a newer adaptation of the weapon. The hilt, ('Nio' the general term used for a hilt in Nias).. does not looks like the general Nias archetype.

Si Euli examples can be found in Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, pg 123-124.

According to Elio Modigliani in " Un Viaggio a Nias" they are just knifes with a plain blade ( The Niha didn't made pamor blades) but is the scabbard shape meant to imitate the keris scabbards.

a nice exmple is this one form the museum in Amsterdam

regards,

Arjan

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

According to Elio Modigliani in " Un Viaggio a Nias" they are just knifes with a plain blade ( The Niha didn't made pamor blades) but is the scabbard shape meant to imitate the keris scabbards.

Thanks Arjan.. exactly what I meant earlier. Those that said it's a keris probably haven't seen the blade.

For those who have a copy of Karsten Sejr Jensen's "Den Indonesiske Kris -et symbolladet vaben", is there a picture of the Nias blade in it?

[kai]

I agree that the issue of Nias keris is pretty much borderline and not well researched yet.

There are Nias chiefs who did wear real keris as status symbols (cp. Fig. 209 in Karsten's kris disk). These seem to be confined to northern Nias and were most likely gifts from Sumatran and Bugis rulers who wanted to establish good relations and trade (slaves were the most sought-after "commodity" from Nias).

Then there are typical si euli which generally(?) have single-edged blades and scabbards based on Minang Kabau sewar (long protrusion extending at a right angle at the edged side of the blade as well as an angled foot); typical for Nias is the addition of a ring-like feature at the other side of the scabbard throat (for attaching chains with bells and a set of tools like tweezers, ear spoon, etc.) and the ample use of brass rather than silver or suasa. Hilts come in different types: niotu lutolu and nioloa uma (traditional Nias hilts based on stylized animal heads or maybe Lasara motifs), niobu kaka (Nias variant based on planar keris hilts), or niodanga wana (plainer hilt with the pommel angled at 45 degrees).

And last not least there are unique Nias "keris" as the example from the start of this thread: These have a unique scabbard type (obviously based on keris scabbards) with a cross-piece also exhibiting the attachment ring of the si euli as well as a typical ball-like carving at the other side. The hilt can either be of the planar hilt variant (as Arjan's example from the Tropenmuseum) or a large, curved hilt with disk-like finial (as in the first pic of this thread), often made from ivory. The blade may be single-edged or double edged and tends to be roughly forged (if genuine Nias work rather than traded). I'll try to add better pics of mine example to show details of the blade, etc. I'm not yet convinced that the name si euli traditionally applies to this keris-like dagger, too...

While the blade usually doesn't qualify as a keris, I believe we have to accept that these pieces were crafted to represent keris and to fulfill their adapted social function in (North) Nias society. Moreover, Nias culture wasn't much influenced by hindu (nor muslim) concepts and transplanting a cultural icon from its mother culture into the completely different Nias culture is bound to result in changes/omissions/adaptations which may not seem "correct" in the originating culture. However, I believe it would be fair to judge wether these are keris by examining this issue from a Nias point of view, too.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Your hilt and blade are very different. The hilt with a human figure, looks somewhat Batak-like to me. Perhaps, an example of a newer adaptation of the weapon. The hilt, ('Nio' the general term used for a hilt in Nias).. does not looks like the general Nias archetype.

Yes, this looks off and newly done. I believe this isn't genuine Nias work.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

According to Elio Modigliani in " Un Viaggio a Nias" they are just knifes with a plain blade ( The Niha didn't made pamor blades) but is the scabbard shape meant to imitate the keris scabbards.

Any laminated blade has pamor (however weak) and I believe that anybody would be misled when assuming that the absence of any bold pamor would help to exclude these blades from being keris...

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Here are the blades of 3 of my Si Euli. I am travelling at the moment so I don't have any possibility to take better pictures but I hope they are good enough as examples for this thread. The 4 other antique ones I have seen all had the same kind of plain blades as mine (as Arjan indicated).
I agree with Kai that they seems to be closer to a local variation of the sewar than the keris. Probably the keris like ones are exceptions, based on their rarity in old collections?

Michael

[Alam Shah]

Hi Kai, thanks for the update.. forgot to check Karsten's "Kris Disk".. Better pictures of the 1st posted piece are found there, but still no blade visible except for those which are sewar-like, (3 examples).

Hi Michael, nice examples of Si Euli. My obsevations are, Si Euli is typically a sewar-like blade with a sewar-like sheath.. however, the example posted in post #1, probably have a sewar-like blade with a keris-like sheath..

If we look at other weaponry of Nias, we mostly see variation of balato, sewar and badik-like knives, spears, etc.. The same post #1 piece can also be found in Feldman's book "Nias, Tribal Treasures. Cosmic Reflections in Stone, Wood and Gold", again without the blade visible..

The one found in Jensen's 'Kris Disk', Fig 209: "A Chief from North Nias with a Gayo/Aceh type of kris", may be an imported keris used, not part of the local culture. My opinion is, there is no keris culture in Nias.. if there is keris found there, it's most probably imported from mainland Sumatra. Currently I do not have supportive evidence to prove that, but I've yet to see evidence that one does exist to sway my opinion. What do you think?

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Kai, thanks for the update.. forgot to check Karsten's "Kris Disk".. Better pictures of the 1st posted piece are found there, but still no blade visible except for those which are sewar-like, (3 examples).

Hi Michael, nice examples of Si Euli. My obsevations are, Si Euli is typically a sewar-like blade with a sewar-like sheath.. however, the example posted in post #1, probably have a sewar-like blade with a keris-like sheath..

If we look at other weaponry of Nias, we mostly see variation of balato, sewar and badik-like knives, spears, etc.. The same post #1 piece can also be found in Feldman's book "Nias, Tribal Treasures. Cosmic Reflections in Stone, Wood and Gold", again without the blade visible..

The one found in Jensen's 'Kris Disk', Fig 209: "A Chief from North Nias with a Gayo/Aceh type of kris", may be an imported keris used, not part of the local culture. My opinion is, there is no keris culture in Nias.. if there is keris found there, it's most probably imported from mainland Sumatra. Currently I do not have supportive evidence to prove that, but I've yet to see evidence that one does exist to sway my opinion. What do you think?

Hi Alam Shah, Indeed there was no keris culture on Nias,or at least when imported kerisses are adopted they didn't had the function like on Java an Bali. The culture on Nias was totally different and what was the keris for a Javanese was the Balatu Sebua ( translated= Knife no;1 or the first knife) for a Niha. We have to split however Nias in south and north and the north had much more influence from Sumatra. The Balatu sebua there had influenced from the Atjeh sikin for example. They stayed however Balatu's.
Also the sewarlike Si Euli was IMO more common in the North as the South.Old pics from the north for example show sometimes warriors without Balatu sebua but with Si Euli. The fact that the balatu didn't had its rattan ball and that headhunting wasn't mostly practised in the north, may point out that the Balato lost somewhat of his importance. See there the base to adopt weaponery from other cultures. The statement that the first weapon should represent a keris is somewhat to far IMO. If we see the great skill a niha could carve I don't think they tried to imitate a javanese keris but they just adopted some designs they like. You see that also in the swords of north nias. some are almost like a sikin but are they still balato? Difficult... but what's in the name.....

regards,

Arjan

[Sajen]

Hello,

I just want to add a thought. I have seen some Siraui in Keris like sheaths and nobody will call them keris only because the similar sheat so why we want to call Si Eulis Nias Keris because some come with a Keris like sheath?
And don't foget the main different between keris and other daggers: A keris have a gonjo! And I don't remember to have seen a Si Euli with a gonjo.

Detlef

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello,

I just want to add a thought. I have seen some Siraui in Keris like sheaths and nobody will call them keris only because the similar sheat so why we want to call Si Eulis Nias Keris because some come with a Keris like sheath?
And don't foget the main different between keris and other daggers: A keris have a gonjo! And I don't remember to have seen a Si Euli with a gonjo.

Detlef

Hi Sajen,

I don't think the real question in situ here is if we must call a Si euli with a keris like scabbard a keris or a Si Euli.
I think what Alam Shah wanted to know if kerisses where also made on Nias or not and if there's any Keris culture on the island or not, but correct me if I'm wrong............

[David]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

I don't think the real question in situ here is if we must call a Si euli with a keris like scabbard a keris or a Si Euli.
I think what Alam Shah wanted to know if kerisses where also made on Nias or not and if there's any Keris culture on the island or not, but correct me if I'm wrong............

It seems to me that if this conversation is to continue that this is the direction it should take. This is, after all, a forum dedicated to the keris. Let's direct this discussion then towards actual Nias keris, not siraui of other weapons of the region.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Sajen,

I don't think the real question in situ here is if we must call a Si euli with a keris like scabbard a keris or a Si Euli.
I think what Alam Shah wanted to know if kerisses where also made on Nias or not and if there's any Keris culture on the island or not, but correct me if I'm wrong............

Of course you are correct! And what I want to say is that on Nias don't have been a Keris culture since this blades lacks all features a keris blade normally have and the only similarity is the sheat.

[Mytribalworld]

Just found this curious one, a scabbard only .....

It has more in common with the human figures with upraised arms IMO.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by David

It seems to me that if this conversation is to continue that this is the direction it should take. This is, after all, a forum dedicated to the keris. Let's direct this discussion then towards actual Nias keris, not siraui of other weapons of the region.

Oooh that way, I changed my mind, its a keris of course!

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

It seems to me that if this conversation is to continue that this is the direction it should take. This is, after all, a forum dedicated to the keris. Let's direct this discussion then towards actual Nias keris, not siraui of other weapons of the region.

I believe what others are trying to say here are, the relations of the 'Nias Keris' form, the blade and sheath. Adding a little about the cultures in Nias.. the extend of outside influence with the culture.. the form of its weapons - (to established if Keris is one of the weapon used), still within the parameters of a keris discussion..

As mentioned, it is believed to be a status wear (out of fancy, oddity), rather than a culture. Perhaps when it's listed in the Ensiklopedi Keris as a keris, many imitations and wannabes starts to appear..

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

The statement that the first weapon should represent a keris is somewhat to far IMO. If we see the great skill a niha could carve I don't think they tried to imitate a javanese keris but they just adopted some designs they like. You see that also in the swords of north nias. some are almost like a sikin but are they still balato? Difficult... but what's in the name.....

regards,

Arjan

Thanks Arjan for the additional info..

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Sajen

.. I just want to add a thought. I have seen some Siraui in Keris like sheaths and nobody will call them keris only because the similar sheat so why we want to call Si Eulis Nias Keris because some come with a Keris like sheath?

And don't foget the main different between keris and other daggers: A keris have a gonjo! And I don't remember to have seen a Si Euli with a gonjo.

Detlef

As we know, the primary focus is the blade, the sheath and fittings are secondary. If the blade is like those posted in #13 & #18, then it's not a keris, no matter what is is called locally..

As for the Siraui, the blade itself is not, although the sheath, does looks like a gayaman styled keris sheath, to a certain extent.

[SwordZ]

Hi all,

I tought i have another "keris like object" , it DOES have gonjo, nias keris ?
frankly said, i interested on the mollar hilt