Small "Blingy" Knife, But From Where and What Was its Purpose???

CharlesS · 21st June 2020, 08:41 PM

Any ideas about the origins and use of this small knife? 28cm. overall.

Battara · 22nd June 2020, 05:26 AM

OO.........I like this one!

Kinda makes me think of Indonesia, even perhaps Aceh, although the blade makes me think of Borneo.

Ian · 22nd June 2020, 11:06 AM

The small size and wide blade makes me think of a knife to cut betel. While I've not seen any exactly like this one, betel-knives can be quite ornate as can the boxes that accompany the storage and tools for preparing the Areca nut for chewing.

The blade seems modeled after a Sumatran klewang, although the small piece protruding just below the hilt looks more Kalimantan. The silver work on the hilt could pass for southern Thai/Malaysian but I think it is more likely Sumatran. The wooden scabbard with an opening along the back seems recent in manufacture, and is seen also with a much larger Sumatran klewang, but is not exclusively Sumatran in use.

As usual Charles, you have another intriguing piece of difficult-to-define origin.

CharlesS · 22nd June 2020, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As usual Charles, you have another intriguing piece of difficult-to-define origin.

True Ian! For better or worse that seems to be my specialty. I am always attracted to the odd and unusual with a little bling thrown in!

Bob A · 22nd June 2020, 10:00 PM

The opening in the scabbard seems most useful for weapons that need to be withdrawn in a hurry.

Aside from "somewhere in the Malay Archepelago" that's all Ive got.

Sajen · 22nd June 2020, 11:38 PM

Hello Charles,

Most beautiful knife!

Never seen such a knife before but it remember me a little bit to my lopah petawaran.

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 23rd June 2020, 04:55 AM

The similarities to the lopah are why I mentioned Aceh.

Perhaps I misspoke on the blade - maybe it is Sumatra I was thinking that make a wide ended blade like this.

Did not think of betel nut. Must have belonged to someone of some status.

Sajen · 23rd June 2020, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The similarities to the lopah are why I mentioned Aceh.

But a LP is Batak instead of Aceh!

Regards,
Detlef

CharlesS · 23rd June 2020, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Charles,

Most beautiful knife!

Never seen such a knife before but it remember me a little bit to my lopah petawaran.

Regards,
Detlef

I thought exactly the same, Detlef. But then there's the weird blade.

Sajen · 23rd June 2020, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I thought exactly the same, Detlef. But then there's the weird blade.

Like said, I never before I have seen a similar knife.

I only want to point to a possible origin.

Regards,
Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 25th June 2020, 09:13 AM

My gut feel is minangkabau Betel nut knife.

Ian · 25th June 2020, 09:46 AM

Hi Gavin,

What are you seeing that persuades you this is from the Minangkabau people? That's an uncommon attribution with respect to blades.

Ian

P.S. Just to amplify a little on my earler post, attached are pics of klewang from v. Zonneveld's book Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, p. 70. Note no. 265 (from S. Sumatra) and 267 (from Sumatra) in relation to the shape of the blade on the small knife shown by Charles.
.

Gavin Nugent · 25th June 2020, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin,

What are you seeing that persuades you this is from the Minangkabau people? That's an uncommon attribution with respect to blades.

Ian

P.S. Just to amplify a little on my earler post, attached are pics of klewang from v. Zonneveld's book Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, p. 70. Note no. 265 (from S. Sumatra) and 267 (from Sumatra) in relation to the shape of the blade on the small knife shown by Charles.
.

Ian,

With respect to the blades, and it has not been quantified by Charles, but at face value looking at the scabbard, the blade is not on the inner curved edge but the outer edge

The examples you point to are blades with a cutting edge on the inner forward curving edge.

If Zonneveld is to be referred to, one could also point out page 126, figure 511 shows a sheath typical to the region of Minangkabau, akin to this example Charles presents.

Gavin

Ian · 26th June 2020, 11:23 AM

Gavin,

Thanks for the reference to the Minangkabau in v. Zonneveld.

With regard to the klewang he shows, the two I referred to have straight cutting edges and upturned hilts (which I suspect is the same as Charle's example). I have owned a couple of these and that is how the edge and hilt were oriented on both of them. Also, if you look at the pics I showed from v. Zonneveld's book, the upper and middle set of three all have their edges on the right hand side of the photograph, but the bottom two have their edges on the left.

As far as the split back of the scabbard, I think this has become more common on contemporary Indonesian scabbards. I do think the scabbard was more recently made than the knife.

Ian

Gavin Nugent · 26th June 2020, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Gavin,

Thanks for the reference to the Minangkabau in v. Zonneveld.

With regard to the klewang he shows, the two I referred to have straight cutting edges and upturned hilts (which I suspect is the same as Charle's example). I have owned a couple of these and that is how the edge and hilt were oriented on both of them. Also, if you look at the pics I showed from v. Zonneveld's book, the upper and middle set of three all have their edges on the right hand side of the photograph, but the bottom two have their edges on the left.

As far as the split back of the scabbard, I think this has become more common on contemporary Indonesian scabbards. I do think the scabbard was more recently made than the knife.

Ian

Hi Ian,

I beg to differ. Those pictured, 265, 267, the cutting is on the inside curve.

All those I've owned and sold of that particular type from Betel nut size to sword size and those still with me, this is the case too, the edge is on the inner curve.
Of all those pictured, these two, 265 & 267 are the exception where blade orientation is concerned.

Charles should be able to chime in on these two in the book, he's owned and sold the type too. I recall one he sold from the 4th April 2018.
Seek out one of my past sold listings, Sold item s1504. I don't believe I can provide my own links here

Gavin

Ian · 26th June 2020, 04:00 PM

Hi Gavin,

You may be correct. My experience with these klewang is different. Since Albert v. Zonneveld is a member of this forum, he might be able to tell us how his pictures are oriented.

Ian

Aleksey G. · 26th June 2020, 05:48 PM

Ahhhhhhh….its like a Lopah and Panabas had a forbidden baby, and that baby is a boy…with ballz, well a ball technically. Grip curvature is gentler than in the lopahs and has an extended pommel area, while lopahs are mostly thinning to a point, ring band decoration is also common to the quality panabas…very mini panabas-ish if you ask me. Love that hilt bling.

Aleksey G. · 26th June 2020, 05:58 PM

on another note, a similar piece has been posted here back in 2009 on this thread. See pic and link included. Blade point is different and pommel is slightly different, but maybe wear or break on the blade and sheath adopted later.
Origin theory in that thread negates my panabas guess lol. Hope this helps.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=sacrificial

Ian · 27th June 2020, 06:11 AM

A larger klewang, but with scabbard of similar style to the subject of this thread appears in the "Sold" section on the Oriental Arms site. This one is labeled as a South Sumatran klewang.
.

Gavin Nugent · 27th June 2020, 07:24 AM

Thanks Ian,

That scabbard is almost "shaver cool"... yep I said it

far too modern to gauge origins IMHO, perhaps a form seen all over the island

I feel there is mostly agreement on Sumatra at least.

You noted from the image you present were the edge is on these types?

Attached is a very fine Aceh example with an original old scabbard found in the MET. A northern scabbard phenomenon too.

Gavin

21st June 2020, 08:41 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Small "Blingy" Knife, But From Where and What Was its Purpose??? Any ideas about the origins and use of this small knife? 28cm. overall. Attached Images

22nd June 2020, 11:38 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Hello Charles, Most beautiful knife! Never seen such a knife before but it remember me a little bit to my lopah petawaran. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

25th June 2020, 09:46 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Gavin, What are you seeing that persuades you this is from the Minangkabau people? That's an uncommon attribution with respect to blades. Ian P.S. Just to amplify a little on my earler post, attached are pics of klewang from v. Zonneveld's book Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, p. 70. Note no. 265 (from S. Sumatra) and 267 (from Sumatra) in relation to the shape of the blade on the small knife shown by Charles. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 25th June 2020 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Added picture

26th June 2020, 05:48 PM	#17
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Ahhhhhhh….its like a Lopah and Panabas had a forbidden baby, and that baby is a boy…with ballz, well a ball technically. Grip curvature is gentler than in the lopahs and has an extended pommel area, while lopahs are mostly thinning to a point, ring band decoration is also common to the quality panabas…very mini panabas-ish if you ask me. Love that hilt bling. Attached Images

26th June 2020, 05:58 PM	#18
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	on another note, a similar piece has been posted here back in 2009 on this thread. See pic and link included. Blade point is different and pommel is slightly different, but maybe wear or break on the blade and sheath adopted later. Origin theory in that thread negates my panabas guess lol. Hope this helps. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=sacrificial Attached Images Last edited by Aleksey G.; 26th June 2020 at 06:09 PM.

22nd June 2020, 05:26 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	OO.........I like this one! Kinda makes me think of Indonesia, even perhaps Aceh, although the blade makes me think of Borneo.

22nd June 2020, 11:06 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	The small size and wide blade makes me think of a knife to cut betel. While I've not seen any exactly like this one, betel-knives can be quite ornate as can the boxes that accompany the storage and tools for preparing the Areca nut for chewing. The blade seems modeled after a Sumatran klewang, although the small piece protruding just below the hilt looks more Kalimantan. The silver work on the hilt could pass for southern Thai/Malaysian but I think it is more likely Sumatran. The wooden scabbard with an opening along the back seems recent in manufacture, and is seen also with a much larger Sumatran klewang, but is not exclusively Sumatran in use. As usual Charles, you have another intriguing piece of difficult-to-define origin.

22nd June 2020, 10:00 PM	#5
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	The opening in the scabbard seems most useful for weapons that need to be withdrawn in a hurry. Aside from "somewhere in the Malay Archepelago" that's all Ive got.

23rd June 2020, 04:55 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The similarities to the lopah are why I mentioned Aceh. Perhaps I misspoke on the blade - maybe it is Sumatra I was thinking that make a wide ended blade like this. Did not think of betel nut. Must have belonged to someone of some status.

25th June 2020, 09:13 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My gut feel is minangkabau Betel nut knife.

26th June 2020, 11:23 AM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Gavin, Thanks for the reference to the Minangkabau in v. Zonneveld. With regard to the klewang he shows, the two I referred to have straight cutting edges and upturned hilts (which I suspect is the same as Charle's example). I have owned a couple of these and that is how the edge and hilt were oriented on both of them. Also, if you look at the pics I showed from v. Zonneveld's book, the upper and middle set of three all have their edges on the right hand side of the photograph, but the bottom two have their edges on the left. As far as the split back of the scabbard, I think this has become more common on contemporary Indonesian scabbards. I do think the scabbard was more recently made than the knife. Ian

26th June 2020, 04:00 PM	#16
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Gavin, You may be correct. My experience with these klewang is different. Since Albert v. Zonneveld is a member of this forum, he might be able to tell us how his pictures are oriented. Ian

27th June 2020, 06:11 AM	#19
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	A larger klewang, but with scabbard of similar style to the subject of this thread appears in the "Sold" section on the Oriental Arms site. This one is labeled as a South Sumatran klewang. . Attached Images

27th June 2020, 07:24 AM	#20
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Ian, That scabbard is almost "shaver cool"... yep I said it far too modern to gauge origins IMHO, perhaps a form seen all over the island I feel there is mostly agreement on Sumatra at least. You noted from the image you present were the edge is on these types? Attached is a very fine Aceh example with an original old scabbard found in the MET. A northern scabbard phenomenon too. Gavin