German Sword?

Spunjer · 30th December 2012, 12:23 AM

a friend of mine asked me if i could help him with this particular sword. unfortunately, my knowledge is limited to moro and filipino stuff, so i told him i could ask around.
what got my attention is the blade. i see damascus pattern on it. i didn't realized european blade can have such vivid pattern. the blade has a stamp on one side:" Freu (?) bis in den Tod", and on the other side "MEYERSBERG & STAMM SOLINGEN EISENHAUER". the handle appears to be wrapped in rayskin. unfortunately, no scabbard. my question is: from what era is this particular sword? is it a pretty common type? it appears to be a naval cutlass.
thanks in advance.

Sajen · 30th December 2012, 12:41 AM

Hi Ron,

can't tell you from which erea this sword but the inscription mean "Treu bis in den Tod", translated "faithful until dead". I think it's from WWI or WWII and it is for sure a german sword.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 30th December 2012, 12:46 AM

tahnk you very much, Detlef! i love the lamination on this particular sword. just gorgeous!

Sajen · 30th December 2012, 12:52 AM

Yes, agree, look very nice.

Rick · 30th December 2012, 12:53 AM

Firstly, I know nothing about European swords .
Caveat over .
The 'Birdseye pattern' screams India repro to me ...

I'm probably wrong though .

Sajen · 30th December 2012, 01:01 AM

Just google, the other inscription is "Weyersberg & Stamm, Solingen", will tell you more just I find something.

Martin Lubojacky · 30th December 2012, 01:12 AM

Extremely nice sabre !
I would say this is Austrian cavalry officer and probably special piece - the basket looks like M 1904, while the blade M 1869
(correct should be Weyersberg, not Meyersberg....)

Sajen · 30th December 2012, 01:18 AM

So I find out that it is not german but an austrian "kuk KavOffzS M1869" from around 1870-1880 because Weyersberg & Stamm stop the production 1880.

But I am sure that other members here will be able to tell you many more about this interesting sword.

Rick · 30th December 2012, 01:38 AM

Well, never afraid to make a fool of myself ...

Sajen · 30th December 2012, 01:55 AM

Maybe can add that "kav" mean cavelery, "offz" stay for officer and "S" for sabre.

Sajen · 31st December 2012, 10:33 AM

No more informations from the experts?

Spunjer · 31st December 2012, 01:29 PM

lol, i was about to post that, Detlef...
Rick: nah, you didn't make a fool out of yourself. so many fakes out there, it's hard to say which is real, and which is not.

Rick · 31st December 2012, 01:32 PM

Yah Ron, thanks .

That Birdseye pattern had me thinking repro .
My ignorance is showing, I guess .

I would love to see other examples of European work in this style .

Spunjer · 31st December 2012, 02:04 PM

Quote:

That Birdseye pattern had me thinking repro .

that's what got me, too, when i saw this sword, but didn't have the heart to tell my friend, lol. i see so much of the repro stuff on gun shows with this type of lamination...

Martin Lubojacky · 31st December 2012, 03:01 PM

Hi Spunjer,
This is not a fake. As I wrote, basket M1904, blade M1869 style. Austrians used to make laminated blades (maybe special orders) even in the case of infantry models, not only cavalry. They also used to put old blade and newer hilt together. This could be, I would say, private weapon or a weapon made on private request by an cav. officer. Since no expert is comming, I would suggest, If you don´t mind, to send the pictures to Army museum in Prague. They are good experts in Austrian edged weapons, there.
Martin

Atlantia · 31st December 2012, 06:26 PM

I've seen a few similar pattern welded "Damascus" blades on sabres of similar age. A very nice piece.
Looks like a mongram on the spine tang-nut.

Valjhun · 31st December 2012, 07:06 PM

Very nice M1869 austro hungaric sword, officer model.

The 1869s were the first Austrian standard unified swords for all cavalry type regiments of the line; both heavy and light cavalry. The hilt is similar M1906 as Martin said, but in fact it is not, it is the M1869 type for officers, enliested model had just seven holes in the guard, while thisone is adorned. Blade is private purchase damascus pattern solingen made beauty, I would consider an etching. it should appear with a fair contrast in layers. Interesting that it is fullered only on one side. On top of the hilt is engraved the monogram of the owner. Really nice example

Private purchase blades were a common practice in KuK, I saw one M1869 withe a big and massive scabbard, storing nonthing less than a top quality turkish kilic blade with gold koftgari allover.

Norman McCormick · 31st December 2012, 07:26 PM

Hi Guys,
Here's one of mine, Austrian P1850 hilt Kilic blade. Internet search for 'DamastStahl Sword' or 'Eisenhauer Damast Stahl' will bring up plenty of Imperial German/Austrian swords with "damascus" blades.
Regards,
Norman.

Spunjer · 1st January 2013, 02:52 PM

thank you very much for the comments!
I will gladly pass this on to the current owner. Happy New Year!!!

Martin Lubojacky · 2nd January 2013, 12:15 AM

Enclosed please find 2 pictures - cav. officers M1869 and M1904:

M1869 has symmetric basket ending with valute

M1904 has assymetrical basket without valute.

M1869 usually, or mostly employed blades with fuller on outer side only.

Regards,
Martin

RSWORD · 2nd January 2013, 01:57 AM

That has a beautiful pattern welded damascus blade. While one does have to be careful with the "birds eye" pattern, there are authentic old examples in both Indian and European blades. This one is authentic and Ron you should offer to do a light polish and etch because that pattern will really pop.

Spunjer · 2nd January 2013, 03:13 AM

Martin: thank you for the confirmation! that's exactly what it is; it has fuller on one side only.
Rick: i'll bring that up to the owner. i can just imagine how it is when etched!

Battara · 4th January 2013, 01:09 AM

I bring a different angle: I have seen this pattern of damascus on WWI and later Nazi presentation sword blades.

30th December 2012, 12:23 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	German Sword? a friend of mine asked me if i could help him with this particular sword. unfortunately, my knowledge is limited to moro and filipino stuff, so i told him i could ask around. what got my attention is the blade. i see damascus pattern on it. i didn't realized european blade can have such vivid pattern. the blade has a stamp on one side:" Freu (?) bis in den Tod", and on the other side "MEYERSBERG & STAMM SOLINGEN EISENHAUER". the handle appears to be wrapped in rayskin. unfortunately, no scabbard. my question is: from what era is this particular sword? is it a pretty common type? it appears to be a naval cutlass. thanks in advance. Attached Images

31st December 2012, 06:26 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've seen a few similar pattern welded "Damascus" blades on sabres of similar age. A very nice piece. Looks like a mongram on the spine tang-nut. Attached Images

31st December 2012, 07:26 PM	#18
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Guys, Here's one of mine, Austrian P1850 hilt Kilic blade. Internet search for 'DamastStahl Sword' or 'Eisenhauer Damast Stahl' will bring up plenty of Imperial German/Austrian swords with "damascus" blades. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 31st December 2012 at 07:59 PM.

2nd January 2013, 12:15 AM	#20
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Enclosed please find 2 pictures - cav. officers M1869 and M1904: M1869 has symmetric basket ending with valute M1904 has assymetrical basket without valute. M1869 usually, or mostly employed blades with fuller on outer side only. Regards, Martin Attached Images

30th December 2012, 12:41 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hi Ron, can't tell you from which erea this sword but the inscription mean "Treu bis in den Tod", translated "faithful until dead". I think it's from WWI or WWII and it is for sure a german sword. Regards, Detlef

30th December 2012, 12:46 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	tahnk you very much, Detlef! i love the lamination on this particular sword. just gorgeous!

30th December 2012, 12:52 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Yes, agree, look very nice.

30th December 2012, 12:53 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Firstly, I know nothing about European swords . Caveat over . The 'Birdseye pattern' screams India repro to me ... I'm probably wrong though .

30th December 2012, 01:01 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Just google, the other inscription is "Weyersberg & Stamm, Solingen", will tell you more just I find something.

30th December 2012, 01:12 AM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Extremely nice sabre ! I would say this is Austrian cavalry officer and probably special piece - the basket looks like M 1904, while the blade M 1869 (correct should be Weyersberg, not Meyersberg....)

30th December 2012, 01:18 AM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	So I find out that it is not german but an austrian "kuk KavOffzS M1869" from around 1870-1880 because Weyersberg & Stamm stop the production 1880. But I am sure that other members here will be able to tell you many more about this interesting sword.

30th December 2012, 01:38 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Well, never afraid to make a fool of myself ...

30th December 2012, 01:55 AM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Maybe can add that "kav" mean cavelery, "offz" stay for officer and "S" for sabre.

31st December 2012, 10:33 AM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	No more informations from the experts?

31st December 2012, 01:29 PM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	lol, i was about to post that, Detlef... Rick: nah, you didn't make a fool out of yourself. so many fakes out there, it's hard to say which is real, and which is not.

31st December 2012, 01:32 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Yah Ron, thanks . That Birdseye pattern had me thinking repro . My ignorance is showing, I guess . I would love to see other examples of European work in this style .

31st December 2012, 03:01 PM	#15
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Spunjer, This is not a fake. As I wrote, basket M1904, blade M1869 style. Austrians used to make laminated blades (maybe special orders) even in the case of infantry models, not only cavalry. They also used to put old blade and newer hilt together. This could be, I would say, private weapon or a weapon made on private request by an cav. officer. Since no expert is comming, I would suggest, If you don´t mind, to send the pictures to Army museum in Prague. They are good experts in Austrian edged weapons, there. Martin

31st December 2012, 07:06 PM	#17
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Very nice M1869 austro hungaric sword, officer model. The 1869s were the first Austrian standard unified swords for all cavalry type regiments of the line; both heavy and light cavalry. The hilt is similar M1906 as Martin said, but in fact it is not, it is the M1869 type for officers, enliested model had just seven holes in the guard, while thisone is adorned. Blade is private purchase damascus pattern solingen made beauty, I would consider an etching. it should appear with a fair contrast in layers. Interesting that it is fullered only on one side. On top of the hilt is engraved the monogram of the owner. Really nice example Private purchase blades were a common practice in KuK, I saw one M1869 withe a big and massive scabbard, storing nonthing less than a top quality turkish kilic blade with gold koftgari allover.

1st January 2013, 02:52 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thank you very much for the comments! I will gladly pass this on to the current owner. Happy New Year!!!

2nd January 2013, 01:57 AM	#21
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	That has a beautiful pattern welded damascus blade. While one does have to be careful with the "birds eye" pattern, there are authentic old examples in both Indian and European blades. This one is authentic and Ron you should offer to do a light polish and etch because that pattern will really pop.

2nd January 2013, 03:13 AM	#22
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Martin: thank you for the confirmation! that's exactly what it is; it has fuller on one side only. Rick: i'll bring that up to the owner. i can just imagine how it is when etched!

4th January 2013, 01:09 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I bring a different angle: I have seen this pattern of damascus on WWI and later Nazi presentation sword blades.