Pamor Blade of a Pedang Lurus

CharlesS · 13th September 2014, 04:05 PM

I would like to learn more about the blade of this pedang lurus. I have no idea of the age. It looks old to me, but some of the blade makers in Indonesia today are doing some very good work.

The dress is silver alloy, not particularly of good quality and doesn't show much age.

BUT!...it is the BLADE I am interested in. Whether old or more recent, I am fascinated by the construction of this blade and have seen nothing like it before.

I hope I can learn more about the pamor and its purpose here. Perhaps I can also get some clue about the age of the blade. It may very well be that it was not "born with" the rest.

Thanks for any input.

David · 13th September 2014, 10:32 PM

Interesting blade Charles, but wrong forum. I'm moving this over to Ethno for you…

CharlesS · 13th September 2014, 11:03 PM

David,

I thought about that...just not sure it will get attention from the right people on this forum.

David · 14th September 2014, 07:29 AM

Sorry Charles, but we made the decision early on that the keris forum was solely for discussion of keris.

CharlesS · 14th September 2014, 01:55 PM

Well you can see it has had exactly the impact I feared...only you and I are talking about the piece...and I'm getting no answers to my query.

I hope you guys will reconsider. I feel like I am being punished because this blade does not have a keris hilt.

Sajen · 14th September 2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I would like to learn more about the blade of this pedang lurus. I have no idea of the age. It looks old to me, but some of the blade makers in Indonesia today are doing some very good work.

The dress is silver alloy, not particularly of good quality and doesn't show much age.

BUT!...it is the BLADE I am interested in. Whether old or more recent, I am fascinated by the construction of this blade and have seen nothing like it before.

I hope I can learn more about the pamor and its purpose here. Perhaps I can also get some clue about the age of the blade. It may very well be that it was not "born with" the rest.

Thanks for any input.

Hi Charles,

don't worry, I am sure others will jump in!

Personally I like the dress, maybe not the finest work but already better quality. Would like to see close ups from the scabbard and hilt.
Very nice pamor but unfortunately I can't name it, maybe Alan will be able. I am sure that the blade is old and not a recent work from Madura and agree with you that the dress seems younger.
Very nice pedang lurus.

Regards,
Detlef

Henk · 14th September 2014, 03:07 PM

Don't worry Charles, keris lovers will also look on this forum. As Detlef said, maybe Alan can tell more about the blade. As far as i can see from the pictures a very fine pedang and better quality than you mostly see. In my opinion an awsome piece.

Emanuel · 14th September 2014, 03:41 PM

Very interesting blade Charles,

It looks almost repulsive in its organic appearances, sort of like snake skin. The oval depressions along the edge look very deep. Is the blade heavily etched? I wonder what the effect would have been like with a smooth surface.

Emanuel

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2014, 12:04 AM

Sorry people.

Alan cannot add much to this discussion.

I looked at the thread last night, but I do not know what I'm looking at. I've never seen a blade of this shape in mounts like this, the hilt appears not to have been made for the blade:- note the visible amount of jabung around the blade base, usually the hole in the hilt is kept as close as possible to the blade base.

I have never seen pamor like like this, I do not know how those scallops along the edge were done.

The dress doesn't look all that old, I'd guess second half 20th century. This sort of dress was popular from the 19th century through to at least WWII and it almost always has quite a few dings along the edges and at the scabbard tip, sometimes there are dings on the guard or other parts of the hilt. The hilt and scabbard on this pedang look almost pristine.

Charles has said "silver alloy" nearly everybody calls mamas silver alloy, or native silver, or low content silver or similar. With all the silver test fluids I have used, silver tests red. If it tests other than red its not silver of any type.

No, I do not know what I'm looking at:-

old, recent, new? don't know

silver or mamas? don't know --- but if it is mamas it will be older, pre-WWII.

blade made as is, or recycled? don't know

quality work or market quality work? don't know

pamor work is certainly unusual, but is this a quality blade or just a show piece? don't know

Too many questions attached to this piece to give any opinion at all.

Question:- how long is it? blade length, overall length?

David · 15th September 2014, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Well you can see it has had exactly the impact I feared...only you and I are talking about the piece...and I'm getting no answers to my query.

I hope you guys will reconsider. I feel like I am being punished because this blade does not have a keris hilt.

Firstly Charles, no one is punishing you. The Keris forum has been limited to the keris from the get-go. We don't discuss tombak there or pedangs either. All that gets talked about on Ethno. Always has.
Secondly you are getting responses to your inquiry. Keris folks look in this forum regularly.
Lastly. it has nothing to do with your blade not having a keris hilt and everything to do with your blade NOT being a keris.

Sajen · 15th September 2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry people.

Alan cannot add much to this discussion.

I looked at the thread last night, but I do not know what I'm looking at. I've never seen a blade of this shape in mounts like this, the hilt appears not to have been made for the blade:- note the visible amount of jabung around the blade base, usually the hole in the hilt is kept as close as possible to the blade base.

I have never seen pamor like like this, I do not know how those scallops along the edge were done.

The dress doesn't look all that old, I'd guess second half 20th century. This sort of dress was popular from the 19th century through to at least WWII and it almost always has quite a few dings along the edges and at the scabbard tip, sometimes there are dings on the guard or other parts of the hilt. The hilt and scabbard on this pedang look almost pristine.

Charles has said "silver alloy" nearly everybody calls mamas silver alloy, or native silver, or low content silver or similar. With all the silver test fluids I have used, silver tests red. If it tests other than red its not silver of any type.

No, I do not know what I'm looking at:-

old, recent, new? don't know

silver or mamas? don't know --- but if it is mamas it will be older, pre-WWII.

blade made as is, or recycled? don't know

quality work or market quality work? don't know

pamor work is certainly unusual, but is this a quality blade or just a show piece? don't know

Too many questions attached to this piece to give any opinion at all.

Question:- how long is it? blade length, overall length?

Very interesting observations Alan! I have noticed the unusual blade shape for a pedang lurus of this type. It could be that an old cut down blade (keris or pedang) was used due the unusual pamor for this pedang. But just a guess. This would explain some of your observations.

Regards,
Detlef

CharlesS · 15th September 2014, 07:30 PM

Dimensions of the piece:

Overall: 21.5in.

Blade: 15.5in.

Blade width at the forte: 1.25in.

The blade does seem unusual for such a sword in the way that it fits into the hilt. I would expect it to be wider at the forte, as so many are.

Rick · 15th September 2014, 08:05 PM

Do you have any information on the piece from the Seller, Charles ?
I think you've got something unique there to say the least .

How would one go about constructing a blade like that ?
Is the true color of the metal as shown in the pictures ?

CharlesS · 15th September 2014, 09:37 PM

Hi Rick,

The seller had no info. I was just immediately intrigued by the blade. Clearly there is lamination here, but how those "cut outs"(for lack or a better term!) were created I don't know. Perhaps chiseling?...though they don't look chiseled. Perhaps some sort of fill, almost like a lost wax method? Note that one goes through the blade and I am assuming that is a forging flaw.

The blade color is absolutely true to the pics. I went out of my way to get good light in these pics because I thought the blade color might be an important factor.

I was hoping this would be immediately recognizable to some folks here, but apparently it only raises more questions.

Thanks for all the comments and insight.

Andrew · 15th September 2014, 11:52 PM

What I know about forging blades wouldn't fill a thimble, but it looks to me like the edges were folded over the central portion of the blade. Wouldn't the "dips" along the folded-over edge be easy to form while the metal was hot by hammering it edge-wise prior to folding over?

13th September 2014, 04:05 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Pamor Blade of a Pedang Lurus I would like to learn more about the blade of this pedang lurus. I have no idea of the age. It looks old to me, but some of the blade makers in Indonesia today are doing some very good work. The dress is silver alloy, not particularly of good quality and doesn't show much age. BUT!...it is the BLADE I am interested in. Whether old or more recent, I am fascinated by the construction of this blade and have seen nothing like it before. I hope I can learn more about the pamor and its purpose here. Perhaps I can also get some clue about the age of the blade. It may very well be that it was not "born with" the rest. Thanks for any input. Attached Images

15th September 2014, 08:05 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Do you have any information on the piece from the Seller, Charles ? I think you've got something unique there to say the least . How would one go about constructing a blade like that ? Is the true color of the metal as shown in the pictures ? Last edited by Rick; 15th September 2014 at 08:22 PM.

13th September 2014, 10:32 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Interesting blade Charles, but wrong forum. I'm moving this over to Ethno for you…

13th September 2014, 11:03 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	David, I thought about that...just not sure it will get attention from the right people on this forum.

14th September 2014, 07:29 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Sorry Charles, but we made the decision early on that the keris forum was solely for discussion of keris.

14th September 2014, 01:55 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Well you can see it has had exactly the impact I feared...only you and I are talking about the piece...and I'm getting no answers to my query. I hope you guys will reconsider. I feel like I am being punished because this blade does not have a keris hilt.

14th September 2014, 03:07 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Don't worry Charles, keris lovers will also look on this forum. As Detlef said, maybe Alan can tell more about the blade. As far as i can see from the pictures a very fine pedang and better quality than you mostly see. In my opinion an awsome piece.

14th September 2014, 03:41 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Very interesting blade Charles, It looks almost repulsive in its organic appearances, sort of like snake skin. The oval depressions along the edge look very deep. Is the blade heavily etched? I wonder what the effect would have been like with a smooth surface. Emanuel

15th September 2014, 12:04 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Sorry people. Alan cannot add much to this discussion. I looked at the thread last night, but I do not know what I'm looking at. I've never seen a blade of this shape in mounts like this, the hilt appears not to have been made for the blade:- note the visible amount of jabung around the blade base, usually the hole in the hilt is kept as close as possible to the blade base. I have never seen pamor like like this, I do not know how those scallops along the edge were done. The dress doesn't look all that old, I'd guess second half 20th century. This sort of dress was popular from the 19th century through to at least WWII and it almost always has quite a few dings along the edges and at the scabbard tip, sometimes there are dings on the guard or other parts of the hilt. The hilt and scabbard on this pedang look almost pristine. Charles has said "silver alloy" nearly everybody calls mamas silver alloy, or native silver, or low content silver or similar. With all the silver test fluids I have used, silver tests red. If it tests other than red its not silver of any type. No, I do not know what I'm looking at:- old, recent, new? don't know silver or mamas? don't know --- but if it is mamas it will be older, pre-WWII. blade made as is, or recycled? don't know quality work or market quality work? don't know pamor work is certainly unusual, but is this a quality blade or just a show piece? don't know Too many questions attached to this piece to give any opinion at all. Question:- how long is it? blade length, overall length?

15th September 2014, 07:30 PM	#12
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Dimensions of the piece: Overall: 21.5in. Blade: 15.5in. Blade width at the forte: 1.25in. The blade does seem unusual for such a sword in the way that it fits into the hilt. I would expect it to be wider at the forte, as so many are.

15th September 2014, 09:37 PM	#14
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Hi Rick, The seller had no info. I was just immediately intrigued by the blade. Clearly there is lamination here, but how those "cut outs"(for lack or a better term!) were created I don't know. Perhaps chiseling?...though they don't look chiseled. Perhaps some sort of fill, almost like a lost wax method? Note that one goes through the blade and I am assuming that is a forging flaw. The blade color is absolutely true to the pics. I went out of my way to get good light in these pics because I thought the blade color might be an important factor. I was hoping this would be immediately recognizable to some folks here, but apparently it only raises more questions. Thanks for all the comments and insight.

15th September 2014, 11:52 PM	#15
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	What I know about forging blades wouldn't fill a thimble, but it looks to me like the edges were folded over the central portion of the blade. Wouldn't the "dips" along the folded-over edge be easy to form while the metal was hot by hammering it edge-wise prior to folding over?