Pappenheimer - identifying maker

[Triarii]

Me again.
I've just given this Pappenheimer a clean up - removed the active rust and the layer of crud inside the pierced baskets. Wooden grip is a bit worn inside so the blade moves relative to the guard.
I'm trying to identify the maker here. I think the words are IOHANNI Z, but that may be my brain inserting letters that aren't there. The only candidate I can identify so far is Johanni Zucini, but this may be too late for him.

There are also anchor type marks at the end of the fullers and armourers marks on the ricasso which I cant find in Gyngall & Hawtrey. Can anyone help? Thanks.

[Triarii]

Digging about I'm pretty sure the mark is a Toledo one - matches very well the form of those on page 34 of Hawtrey, some of which also have single letters, and it appears to be a curvy E (a soak in WD40 and poking with a cotton bud showed more).

IOANNI could also be Latin for Juane.

[mariusgmioc]

To me it seems it is not Ioannis but IOHANNIS or even JOHANNIS.

May it be it refers to refer to Johannis Brach?!

There might be other candidates as well, like Johannis Hoppe, Johannes Mumm, Johannes Wundes and maybe others I do not know. The punch mark should give more information.

The "anchor" mark is most likely a talismanic symbol found on many swords, and I do not think it can be useful for identifying the maker.

Anyhow, magnificent rapier!

[Triarii]

You're right, it is IOHANNIS, my typo.

I've had a Google and a search on here (find a 2016 discussion on Solingen makers going to Spain and the Fox / Wolf conundrum) but cannot find any more on Johannis Brach. Can you help in any way?

[fernando]

If the punch mark pictures were in the inverted position, some Toledo marks would (sort of) match that one. But the name on the blade being JOHANNIS, i don't think Toledo is a possibility.
Beautiful sword, by the way.


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[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

If the punch mark pictures were in the inverted position, some Toledo marks would (sort of) match that one. But the name on the blade being JOHANNIS, i don't think Toledo is a possibility.
Beautiful sword, by the way.


.

Didn't Johannis Brach work for a while in Toledo too?

I seem to remember there are a couple of swords made by him in Toledo, that were in the imperial Russian collection?!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Didn't Johannis Brach work for a while in Toledo too?

I seem to remember there are a couple of swords made by him in Toledo, that were in the imperial Russian collection?!

He could have; i am not sure. The punch is in a place typically used by 'real' Toledan smiths; although it doesn't appear in Palomares nomina.
What about if Triarii showed us the other side of the blade; does it have the same lettering ?

[cornelistromp]

the name IOHANNI, which is almost certainly a Solingen bladesmith's signature and found on a number of swords from the first half of the the 17thC. cf JP Puype the visser colection part3, p234

[fernando]

I would not be surprised, neither many of us that, some German (Solingen) smiths latinized their names to atract the Iberian market. What is new for me is their stamping punzones in blade ricassos as if they were Toledan masters.
Well, we learn until we die.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by fernando

I would not be surprised, neither many of us that, some German (Solingen) smiths latinized their names to atract the Iberian market. What is new for me is their stamping punzones in blade ricassos as if they were Toledan masters.
Well, we learn until we die.

Hi Fernando, herewith some examples
Clemes Brach used the Toledo (quality) mark , Clemens Tesche used a similar stamp as Alonso de Sahagun and Peter Tesche the one of Pedro del Velmonte.

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

Ah ... now i am learning .
What can one (smith) do to make a living .
Thank you so much Jasper, for the rather precious info .
Vrolijk Kerstfeest

[Victrix]

I have a boca caballo sword with what looks like a typical Solingen blade adorned with a typical Toledo stamp on the ricasso. From what I can observe it looks like the Solingen ”counterfeit” punzones were far less clear and crisp compared to the real Toledo marks.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... From what I can observe it looks like the Solingen ”counterfeit” punzones were far less clear and crisp compared to the real Toledo marks.

So it looks like... yes.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by fernando

He could have; i am not sure. The punch is in a place typically used by 'real' Toledan smiths; although it doesn't appear in Palomares nomina.
What about if Triarii showed us the other side of the blade; does it have the same lettering ?

Hi all,

Both sides appear to be the same punch. Here are two photos of one side, two of the other with differing lighting (the little line/flaw to the left is the discriminating mark).