Seeking Help with Blade Marks

Cathey · 23rd April 2016, 10:16 AM

Hi Guys

I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th April 2016, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey .. I am sure you will be familiar with http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...scription.html and its fine references however I post this in case others may not have seen the references attached to that document which go some way to laying down some theory as to the meanings of Latin inscriptions on Sword Blades... even though they are older than the project sword you illustrate...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 25th April 2016, 02:02 AM

Hi

I was checking out AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, its Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75. In this book he makes mention that brass cast hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down as required. I think this has an earlier rapier blade, I just wish I could match the letters with a known maker.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 25th April 2016, 02:39 AM

Hi Guys, just revised the details on this sword, still seeking assistance with blade markings.

Transitional Rapier with marked blade

I recently picked up this brass hilted transitional Rapier/Small Sword circa 1680-1720 I think.
Overall Length: 38” 96.3 cm
Blade length: 31” 78.6 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.5 cm
Marks, etc.: engraved XX L S X M I N I XX

The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. According to AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, it’s Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75 brass hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down. Looking at the width of the broad sword blade I think this is such an example. Any assistance identifying the signature in the fuller would be gratefully received.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2016, 09:02 PM

I am curious on the 'anchor' mark, any chance of an image?
While they seem to be often thought of as standard, there are sometimes variations.
I think the assessment of a cut down rapier blade seems quite reasonable and for the period noted of latter 17th c.
Aylward (1945, p.55) does indeed note a brass hilted 18th c. sword,with such a blade:
"...the curious thing one remarks about it being that it is always furnished with a double edged blade of rapier type which is often an actual 17th c.
one cut down and still signed by Aiala or Sahagun or at the least en Toledo' in that case with the wolf mark sometimes contradicting that assertion".
Obviously the wolf mark meaning the 'Passau' wolf instantly denoting German rather than Spanish attribution. However, I have personally not ever as I recall ever seen that combination.

While Aylward speaks about the brass hilts having a good deal of opposition from established makers of the finer hilts, he notes they had become well established after first quarter 18th c

It would seem the configuration of 'x's and words correspond to blades of the period in the late 17th and likely earlier, but this does to be a transitional blade as noted.
Similar inscriptions are X EN X MENE XX and again terminated by the 'anchor'.
The word 'MINI' may be a variant of the mene word, which is somewhat apocryphal but alludes to early Biblical references from the Book of Daniel etc. I have seen the meaning of IN MENE to mean 'in mind', but again there are many interpretations, and this may be another variant. Whatever the case it seems most likely of Solingen in late 17thc.

The excellent link to Latin inscriptions entered by Ibrahiim is truly helpful in trying to decipher many of these phrases and words so often found on blades, with many of them actually acrostics and in many cases with numeric equivilents (often used in Cabalistic cases).

fernando · 28th April 2016, 01:01 PM

Hi Cathey,
I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle.
Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it".
Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2016, 09:04 PM

Cathey, I just wanted to update the research I have been working on concerning the marks on your blade. Actually these marks or more accurately, inscription, are not likely to represent a particular maker of your blade. As I indicated in my earlier post, I think your assessment of latter 17th century and a transitional rapier blade is well placed.

There would seem to be little doubt this is a Solingen product, but interpreting the actual meaning of these letters is more of a conundrum.
The authors Wagner, Worley, Blennow and Beckenholmen in their 2009 article, "Medieval Christian Invocation Inscriptions on Sword Blades" (Waffen und Kostumkunde, 51(1), pp11-52) claim,
"...maybe these inscriptions are early examples of a mixture between vernacular and Latin elements as an imitation or reinterpretation of older blades whose strongly abbreviated inscriptions were incomprehensible to the contemporaries". (p.38)

While obviously this perspective refers to much earlier blades however I think the same axiom applies.

As I also mentioned in my earlier post, a curved blade mounted in a cast brass 18th c. hilt has the inscription:
X EN X MENE XX
(posted by Fernando 12Dec 2007)

This exemplar clearly iilustrates similar type inscriptions were used by apparent Solingen makers in the 18th c. thus most certainly some time earlier. While the term 'mene' is Latin, the 'en' seems to represent Spanish for 'in' while German would be 'ihn',

The term 'mena' could also refer to 'numbered' as with ancient Jewish coins as described in "Belshazzars Feast " (Daniel 5: 30-31) which includes the passages of 'the writing on the wall', " MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN".

The 'mena' also was termed 'mina' in it seems various instances.

The term 'MINE' could refer to the Papal Bull of 1059, IN NOMINE DOMINI, which dealt with Canonical law .

Wagner and Worley note that the formulae (In Nomine Domine) and cross potent appear consistently in invocation lines of almost all diplomata (legal acts).

While more tenuous, Wagner and Worley (op cit. p.46, #61) note that the letters I S represent abbreviated Latin word 'ius' (= right, law).
Is it possible this LS might be IS or related ?

Further.......L.S. = locum sigillis, or place of the seal. Appended to
signature of legal documents.

It is doubtful that LS would be the initials of a maker as they would not be part of the configuration of such an invocation .

The 'anchor' just as the cross in these kinds of invocations was used to enhance or emphasize the talismanic power or imbuement in such inscriptions and invocations.

While certainly these details are entirely circumstantial and cannot offer, or enlighten the dilemma of any accurate translation of meaning in this case,
it is the best I can come up with. As seen in the resources I have noted, as well as others such as Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962); Oakeshott (1961) et al. ..most of the interpretation of these kinds of inscriptions is largely supposed, with a lesser number accurately recorded.

Richard G · 30th April 2016, 01:02 PM

I don't mean to disparage Cathey's eyesight, but from the photo's I would have read this as xx LS x XISI xx. I realise the second S is different from the first, but could the first be an N? Anyway, If this was so, would it make any interpretation easier?
Regards
Richard

cornelistromp · 1st May 2016, 10:27 AM

IX XINI

is the name (of a bay and) watch tower build in 1661 on the Maltese island of Gozo, ruled by the Order of Saint John, this is one of the last build towers which served as a safe harbour for visiting ships and to protect and safeguard the bay and the Gozo Island.
Malta was ruled by the Order of Saint John under Sicily from 1530 to 1798.

best,
Jasper

fernando · 1st May 2016, 04:10 PM

Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

cornelistromp · 5th May 2016, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

Hi Fernando,
yes I read IX XINI

best,

fernando · 5th May 2016, 05:38 PM

Duly noted, Jasper.

MVG

Cathey · 7th May 2016, 02:11 AM

Good morning

Firstly my apologies for not responding to my own post sooner, however I have been extremely time poor of late.

Jim, I have attached close ups of Anchor mark for you, and the more I look at this sword the more I agree it has a cut down rapier blade.

Richard, how did you know my eyesight is not as good as it was? I must confess my translation of the letter was my best guess. I am more than happy to explore the possibility that the inscription is xx LS x XISI xx.

Jasper, if the letters are IX XINI, would that make the blade Italian (Sicily) do you think?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2016, 06:00 PM

Hi Cathey,
Thank you for the added look at the anchor, which is heavier and more blockish than Spanish examples used in 16th to early 17th c. While some authorities on Spanish swords consider the 'anchor' a Solingen convention, the rapier with blade from the prominent Alonso Perez with his distinctive anchor at the fuller terminals was found on the 'Atocha' wreck.
The Atocha went down in the Florida Keys in 1622.
Perez worked 1570s to c. 1625.

The association with the inscribed Latin words to Malta and the mention of Sicilian rule really do not, in my opinion, suggest this to be an Italian blade. Actually I am not aware of blades made in Sicily, but it is sometimes confusing as Sicily was typically ruled along with predominant states on the Italian mainland.
As Jasper has noted, The Knights of St. John (I believe also known as the Knights of Malta), ruled Malta. The Knights of St John interestingly were also well situated in Solingen.
That puts this blade nicely in place with this term, and the building of this tower in 1661 seems in period with these blades.

The neoclassic hilt of mid to later 18th century reminds me of French forms I have seen, and it is to wonder if perhaps this was a heirloom blade with connections to someone well connected in these orders.

23rd April 2016, 10:16 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Seeking Help with Blade Marks Hi Guys I recently picked up this brass hilted small sword circa 1680-1720 I think. The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. Any assistance will be most gratefully received. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

25th April 2016, 02:02 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND Hi I was checking out AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, its Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75. In this book he makes mention that brass cast hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down as required. I think this has an earlier rapier blade, I just wish I could match the letters with a known maker. Cheers Cathey

25th April 2016, 02:39 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Revised details Hi Guys, just revised the details on this sword, still seeking assistance with blade markings. Transitional Rapier with marked blade I recently picked up this brass hilted transitional Rapier/Small Sword circa 1680-1720 I think. Overall Length: 38” 96.3 cm Blade length: 31” 78.6 cm Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.5 cm Marks, etc.: engraved XX L S X M I N I XX The blade does have letters in the fuller and the typical anchor mark but I need assistance to identify them and hopefully the maker. From what I can make out under a magnifying glass it appears to be XX L S X MINI XX followed by the anchor mark. According to AYLWARD, J.D. THE SMALL SWORD IN ENGLAND its History, it’s Forms, its Makers, and is Masters pp 64, 74-75 brass hilted small swords often had earlier rapier blades cut down. Looking at the width of the broad sword blade I think this is such an example. Any assistance identifying the signature in the fuller would be gratefully received. Cheers Cathey and Rex

25th April 2016, 09:02 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	I am curious on the 'anchor' mark, any chance of an image? While they seem to be often thought of as standard, there are sometimes variations. I think the assessment of a cut down rapier blade seems quite reasonable and for the period noted of latter 17th c. Aylward (1945, p.55) does indeed note a brass hilted 18th c. sword,with such a blade: "...the curious thing one remarks about it being that it is always furnished with a double edged blade of rapier type which is often an actual 17th c. one cut down and still signed by Aiala or Sahagun or at the least en Toledo' in that case with the wolf mark sometimes contradicting that assertion". Obviously the wolf mark meaning the 'Passau' wolf instantly denoting German rather than Spanish attribution. However, I have personally not ever as I recall ever seen that combination. While Aylward speaks about the brass hilts having a good deal of opposition from established makers of the finer hilts, he notes they had become well established after first quarter 18th c It would seem the configuration of 'x's and words correspond to blades of the period in the late 17th and likely earlier, but this does to be a transitional blade as noted. Similar inscriptions are X EN X MENE XX and again terminated by the 'anchor'. The word 'MINI' may be a variant of the mene word, which is somewhat apocryphal but alludes to early Biblical references from the Book of Daniel etc. I have seen the meaning of IN MENE to mean 'in mind', but again there are many interpretations, and this may be another variant. Whatever the case it seems most likely of Solingen in late 17thc. The excellent link to Latin inscriptions entered by Ibrahiim is truly helpful in trying to decipher many of these phrases and words so often found on blades, with many of them actually acrostics and in many cases with numeric equivilents (often used in Cabalistic cases). Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th April 2016 at 09:41 PM.

28th April 2016, 09:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Cathey, I just wanted to update the research I have been working on concerning the marks on your blade. Actually these marks or more accurately, inscription, are not likely to represent a particular maker of your blade. As I indicated in my earlier post, I think your assessment of latter 17th century and a transitional rapier blade is well placed. There would seem to be little doubt this is a Solingen product, but interpreting the actual meaning of these letters is more of a conundrum. The authors Wagner, Worley, Blennow and Beckenholmen in their 2009 article, "Medieval Christian Invocation Inscriptions on Sword Blades" (Waffen und Kostumkunde, 51(1), pp11-52) claim, "...maybe these inscriptions are early examples of a mixture between vernacular and Latin elements as an imitation or reinterpretation of older blades whose strongly abbreviated inscriptions were incomprehensible to the contemporaries". (p.38) While obviously this perspective refers to much earlier blades however I think the same axiom applies. As I also mentioned in my earlier post, a curved blade mounted in a cast brass 18th c. hilt has the inscription: X EN X MENE XX (posted by Fernando 12Dec 2007) This exemplar clearly iilustrates similar type inscriptions were used by apparent Solingen makers in the 18th c. thus most certainly some time earlier. While the term 'mene' is Latin, the 'en' seems to represent Spanish for 'in' while German would be 'ihn', The term 'mena' could also refer to 'numbered' as with ancient Jewish coins as described in "Belshazzars Feast " (Daniel 5: 30-31) which includes the passages of 'the writing on the wall', " MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN". The 'mena' also was termed 'mina' in it seems various instances. The term 'MINE' could refer to the Papal Bull of 1059, IN NOMINE DOMINI, which dealt with Canonical law . Wagner and Worley note that the formulae (In Nomine Domine) and cross potent appear consistently in invocation lines of almost all diplomata (legal acts). While more tenuous, Wagner and Worley (op cit. p.46, #61) note that the letters I S represent abbreviated Latin word 'ius' (= right, law). Is it possible this LS might be IS or related ? Further.......L.S. = locum sigillis, or place of the seal. Appended to signature of legal documents. It is doubtful that LS would be the initials of a maker as they would not be part of the configuration of such an invocation . The 'anchor' just as the cross in these kinds of invocations was used to enhance or emphasize the talismanic power or imbuement in such inscriptions and invocations. While certainly these details are entirely circumstantial and cannot offer, or enlighten the dilemma of any accurate translation of meaning in this case, it is the best I can come up with. As seen in the resources I have noted, as well as others such as Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962); Oakeshott (1961) et al. ..most of the interpretation of these kinds of inscriptions is largely supposed, with a lesser number accurately recorded. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th April 2016 at 03:52 AM.

28th April 2016, 01:01 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cathey, I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle. Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it". Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).

30th April 2016, 01:02 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	I don't mean to disparage Cathey's eyesight, but from the photo's I would have read this as xx LS x XISI xx. I realise the second S is different from the first, but could the first be an N? Anyway, If this was so, would it make any interpretation easier? Regards Richard

1st May 2016, 10:27 AM	#9
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	IX XINI is the name (of a bay and) watch tower build in 1661 on the Maltese island of Gozo, ruled by the Order of Saint John, this is one of the last build towers which served as a safe harbour for visiting ships and to protect and safeguard the bay and the Gozo Island. Malta was ruled by the Order of Saint John under Sicily from 1530 to 1798. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 1st May 2016 at 10:55 AM.

1st May 2016, 04:10 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

5th May 2016, 05:38 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Duly noted, Jasper. MVG

7th May 2016, 02:11 AM	#13
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Apologies for my tardiness Good morning Firstly my apologies for not responding to my own post sooner, however I have been extremely time poor of late. Jim, I have attached close ups of Anchor mark for you, and the more I look at this sword the more I agree it has a cut down rapier blade. Richard, how did you know my eyesight is not as good as it was? I must confess my translation of the letter was my best guess. I am more than happy to explore the possibility that the inscription is xx LS x XISI xx. Jasper, if the letters are IX XINI, would that make the blade Italian (Sicily) do you think? Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

7th May 2016, 06:00 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Hi Cathey, Thank you for the added look at the anchor, which is heavier and more blockish than Spanish examples used in 16th to early 17th c. While some authorities on Spanish swords consider the 'anchor' a Solingen convention, the rapier with blade from the prominent Alonso Perez with his distinctive anchor at the fuller terminals was found on the 'Atocha' wreck. The Atocha went down in the Florida Keys in 1622. Perez worked 1570s to c. 1625. The association with the inscribed Latin words to Malta and the mention of Sicilian rule really do not, in my opinion, suggest this to be an Italian blade. Actually I am not aware of blades made in Sicily, but it is sometimes confusing as Sicily was typically ruled along with predominant states on the Italian mainland. As Jasper has noted, The Knights of St. John (I believe also known as the Knights of Malta), ruled Malta. The Knights of St John interestingly were also well situated in Solingen. That puts this blade nicely in place with this term, and the building of this tower in 1661 seems in period with these blades. The neoclassic hilt of mid to later 18th century reminds me of French forms I have seen, and it is to wonder if perhaps this was a heirloom blade with connections to someone well connected in these orders.