Indian Pesh-Kabz for comment

Cerjak · 4th May 2013, 07:21 PM

Who can tell me more about this Pesh-Kabz ,How old it could be ?

The grip is of (walrus ?) ivory and a heavy T-section blade ,16 inches long.
Any comment on it will be welcome

russel · 4th May 2013, 08:50 PM

I would say Afghan, not Indian.

manteris1 · 5th May 2013, 03:22 AM

very nice.....................jimmy

bhushan_lawate · 5th May 2013, 04:47 PM

Hi,

In my opinion the grip slabs are elephant ivory and not walrus.

A nice piece though....!!!! My inclination is North India Mughal influence late 18th century.

We should be able to find more as the experts come in

Regards,
Bhushan

weapons 27 · 5th May 2013, 06:18 PM

salut cerjak
ton peshkabz est afghan 19ième , je pense que la poignée est en ivoire d'éléphant... pas du morse..

It is an afghan peshkabz 19th, I think that the handle is of the elephant,not the walrus

Cerjak · 5th May 2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weapons 27

salut cerjak
ton peshkabz est afghan 19ième , je pense que la poignée est en ivoire d'éléphant... pas du morse..

It is an afghan peshkabz 19th, I think that the handle is of the elephant,not the walrus

Hi Weapon 27 & Bhushan
Thank you for your answer unfortunately It 's not helping me about age and origin so 18 or 19 Th century ? Indian or Afghan ?

About the hilt yours opinion are the same so I safe

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2013, 06:59 PM

Looks more like camel bone, but a nice real old knife.

weapons 27 · 5th May 2013, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Weapon 27 & Bhushan
Thank you for your answer unfortunately It 's not helping me about age and origin so 18 or 19 Th century ? Indian or Afghan ?

About the hilt yours opinion are the same so I safe

19ième afhgan

AJ1356 · 7th May 2013, 08:33 AM

As others have stated, it is Afghan not Indian, the grip would be elephant ivory. I'd say 20th century, not 19th.

ariel · 7th May 2013, 04:49 PM

There was a discussion once on another forum about afghani chooras.
One person put forward a proposition that choora was a direct descendant of the karud, adapted for softer clothes, at the time whan chainmail went out of fashion ( or use). Thus, he claimed that all chooras date from the 20th century, supporting this assertion by the lack of iconographic evidence of their existence in the 19th cen. drawings or photographs.

Since the object in question obviously belongs to the choora/karud group as based on the configuration of its blade, this assertion is very relevant to the topic of this discussion.

My question: any examples of documented chooras from the 19th century or earlier? Any iconography of the 19th century?

CharlesS · 7th May 2013, 05:14 PM

Is anyone else seeing the porous nature of the hilt scales....might this be bone, rather than ivory?

sandeepsingh · 12th May 2013, 07:27 PM

Hi,
Grip is ivory and seems to be Indian.
It may be influenced from afghan pesh-Kabz form.
Thanks
Sandeep

mahratt · 12th May 2013, 10:10 PM

I believe that this is an item from Afghanistan. Late 19th century - beginning of the 20th century. Bone handle - not an ivory (elephant tusk), and the usual bone (such as the legs of the animal)

Rick · 12th May 2013, 10:16 PM

I tend to agree with mahratt; this was not an expensive dagger when new so I doubt it would warrant ivory scales .

sandeepsingh · 13th May 2013, 05:19 PM

Generally crack type linings comes in ivory but i didn't no that such crack type lining comes in bone also.

ariel · 13th May 2013, 07:37 PM

One can see short longitudinal dark lines: these are periosteal blood vessels.
To simplify: bone. Not ivory.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th May 2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One can see short longitudinal dark lines: these are periosteal blood vessels.
To simplify: bone. Not ivory.

Salaams Ariel, I was searching for some references on Ivory since I recall the puzzling time I had in Afghanistan trying to figure out what these hilts were made of and I found this ~

Books about Ivory.

IVORY By Geoffrey Wills. Published by AS Barnes & Co. First American Edition. Hardcover, 95 pgs. Indexed. Synopsis: covers ivory identification, care, and uses around the world. Many black and white photographs and line drawings.

Is It Ivory? By Harvey Shell. Published by Ahio Publishing Co., 1983. Paperback.

Identification Guide for Ivory and Ivory Substitutes 2nd Edition. By E.O. Espinoza. Published by the World Wildlife Fund, 1992. Paperback.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

russel · 15th May 2013, 12:48 AM

The Espinzo guide is quite detailed and helpful. A scanned pdf can be found here:

http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/p...vory-guide.pdf

Russel

Battara · 15th May 2013, 01:37 AM

Thank you Russell for the link.

4th May 2013, 07:21 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Indian Pesh-Kabz for comment Who can tell me more about this Pesh-Kabz ,How old it could be ? The grip is of (walrus ?) ivory and a heavy T-section blade ,16 inches long. Any comment on it will be welcome Attached Images

4th May 2013, 08:50 PM	#2
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	I would say Afghan, not Indian.

5th May 2013, 03:22 AM	#3
manteris1 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 114	very nice.....................jimmy

5th May 2013, 04:47 PM	#4
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, In my opinion the grip slabs are elephant ivory and not walrus. A nice piece though....!!!! My inclination is North India Mughal influence late 18th century. We should be able to find more as the experts come in Regards, Bhushan

5th May 2013, 06:18 PM	#5
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	salut cerjak ton peshkabz est afghan 19ième , je pense que la poignée est en ivoire d'éléphant... pas du morse.. It is an afghan peshkabz 19th, I think that the handle is of the elephant,not the walrus

5th May 2013, 06:59 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks more like camel bone, but a nice real old knife.

7th May 2013, 08:33 AM	#9
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	As others have stated, it is Afghan not Indian, the grip would be elephant ivory. I'd say 20th century, not 19th.

7th May 2013, 04:49 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There was a discussion once on another forum about afghani chooras. One person put forward a proposition that choora was a direct descendant of the karud, adapted for softer clothes, at the time whan chainmail went out of fashion ( or use). Thus, he claimed that all chooras date from the 20th century, supporting this assertion by the lack of iconographic evidence of their existence in the 19th cen. drawings or photographs. Since the object in question obviously belongs to the choora/karud group as based on the configuration of its blade, this assertion is very relevant to the topic of this discussion. My question: any examples of documented chooras from the 19th century or earlier? Any iconography of the 19th century?

7th May 2013, 05:14 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Is anyone else seeing the porous nature of the hilt scales....might this be bone, rather than ivory?

12th May 2013, 07:27 PM	#12
sandeepsingh Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: India Posts: 85	Hi, Grip is ivory and seems to be Indian. It may be influenced from afghan pesh-Kabz form. Thanks Sandeep

12th May 2013, 10:10 PM	#13
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I believe that this is an item from Afghanistan. Late 19th century - beginning of the 20th century. Bone handle - not an ivory (elephant tusk), and the usual bone (such as the legs of the animal)

12th May 2013, 10:16 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I tend to agree with mahratt; this was not an expensive dagger when new so I doubt it would warrant ivory scales .

13th May 2013, 05:19 PM	#15
sandeepsingh Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: India Posts: 85	Generally crack type linings comes in ivory but i didn't no that such crack type lining comes in bone also.

13th May 2013, 07:37 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	One can see short longitudinal dark lines: these are periosteal blood vessels. To simplify: bone. Not ivory.

15th May 2013, 12:48 AM	#18
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	The Espinzo guide is quite detailed and helpful. A scanned pdf can be found here: http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/p...vory-guide.pdf Russel

15th May 2013, 01:37 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you Russell for the link.