Omani kattara

[Kubur]

Hello

What do you think about this kattara or seif from Oman??
What about the stamps on the blade, solingen, passau??
Do you have a date? 19 or 18th c.??
Please Ibrahim, no cold shower like with the khanjar!!


Thanks
Regards
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

A nice authentic Katara. The blade is European and called "abu Falaj" in Oman. These old blades are highly sought after by collectors in Oman. I have had the pleasure to visit Oman this month, and viewed a big private collection with some interesting European blades. Also, the well known Bait alZubair museum have a good collection of Kataras with such European blades.

[ariel]

Very nice!

Hope I am not going to be lectured that it was destined for a mass dance party :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hello

What do you think about this kattara or seif from Oman??
What about the stamps on the blade, solingen, passau??
Do you have a date? 19 or 18th c.??
Please Ibrahim, no cold shower like with the khanjar!!


Thanks
Regards
Kubur

Salaams Kubur... Now this is a different quality altogether...The Omani Dancing Sword.. Mistakenly believed by many to have been used for fighting. ...Not so. This is a pageantry and dancing...wedding and special events like the religious festivals at both Eids annually... and for praising the ruling dynasty...Thus its dateable appearance can be more or less defined.

Essentially the flexibility of the sword is of paramount importance... If its not flexible its not a dancer... and since there is no such fighting straight arrangement logically no straight variant in this style ever existed. In real terms the description here is Saif or Sayf with the term Kattara being reserved for the curved variant though occasionally there is another curved known internationally as Shamshir but here also called Kattara..occasionally. I have to say also that people here use the generic word Sayf or saif meaning sword ... and I hope that is not confusing...but I know it is !

On this blade which if it is showing a single fuller from the grip to the tip it would be termed a Sayf Abu Falaj ...(the one with the channel) which although Falaj is a term for a man made water course... in this it suggests a blood groove which it isnt... In fact it simply gives added flex and less weight.

The squigles on the blade could be talismanic, however, Im not sure what it is meant to illustrate...A geometric sequence? or it could be after the Passau Wolf sometimes copied onto these blades... but think only of this blade as reminiscent or reflective of the old battle sword in that it was two edged and round tipped.... and used in pageants in honour of the forefathers who actually used the original Battle weapon... The Sayf Yamaani.

Ariel ... Would I go into a diatribe about this dancer?...No... but 2 million Omani People probably would.

Please see The Omani Sayf...at Forum Library. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+sayf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

On this blade which if it is showing a single fuller from the grip to the tip it would be termed a Sayf Abu Falaj ...(the one with the channel) which although Falaj is a term for a man made water course... in this it suggests a blood groove which it isnt... In fact it simply gives added flex and less weight.
.

Fullering aids stiffness Ibrahim... not flex!

Its a way to reduce weight while maintaining maximum strength & stiffness.

Which is rather at odds with you theory that these are ceremonial toys not weapons.

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Very nice!

Hope I am not going to be lectured that it was destined for a mass dance party :-)

Oh but you are Ariel, you are... MORE OR LESS

I hope your sitting down....

Nice fighting sword by the way Kubur. It is the business, a capable and fast fighting sword.

A fuller however as we all knows lessens weight but adds more surface area to create a stronger blade, something hardly needed to bust a move with your mates... The position of this fuller add rigidness to this section to keep the sword strong in your hands yet pliable at the business end, as a good sword should be.

I'd love to post a link to the thread where all the unanswered hard questions are asked about wild dancing claims, but I'll refrain for I am sure everyone has read the passages by now...PM me if you wish to view the passages.

EDIT, I didn't see you jump in there Spiral...


Gavin

[spiral]

Snap!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fullering aids stiffness Ibrahim... not flex!

Its a way to reduce weight while maintaining maximum strength & stiffness.

Which is rather at odds with you theory that these are ceremonial toys not weapons.

spiral

So you theorise that because they have fullers they must be fighting swords.. That is very interesting. I will forward this information to the National Museum. In reducing weight the flexibility can be better exercised in dancing and march past since the blades are lighter no?...the wrist flic easier done and the sword easier to dance with. Surely in the case of the dancing sayf the thinner the blade the more capable its flexibility. The blades are certainly not stiff... on Omani Sayfs. Without wishing to get into a wrangle on the dancer... since that could be misconstrued as argumentative... and since research is ongoing in this field across a whole spectrum of new discoveries which I am not at liberty to discuss... I will let that one simply float by... for now.

Regarding the strange squigles to the throat area I recall a very interesting group of talismanic marks and another from the gun mark on an algerian weapon ... They look similar. I believe that was an incantation in shortened Arabic form in the general range of the God is Great style..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

Thank you all for your compliments and comments.

I know that the 'dancing' fighting swords are a 'delicate' subject.
The blade looks really strong and good for fights.
By the way, you can dance even with a fighting sword.
If you look the old photographs (end of 19th c.), women dance with Ottoman kilij on the head. Nowadays belly dancers continue this tradition.

I'm more interested in the stamps and a date for the blade...

Regards,
Kubur

[Gavin Nugent]

There a lot of wrist flicking going on alright...

I hope you take the time in this secret research to include support for all the questions previously left unanswered.

....

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ariel ... Would I go into a diatribe about this dancer?...No... but 2 million Omani People probably would.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

No they wont. Atleast not the Omanis I met in Muscat and Nizwa. I have mentioned your whole hypothesis and they find it quite hilarious actually. And all the swords they have shown as private collection (not offered for sale) had European and wootz, stiff blades. Some who participate in this forum have seen the photographs I have taken there, but the collectors themselves had me promise not to share it publicly :-)

[A.alnakkas]

And Ibrahim, you may want to wait abit before contacting the national museum. They are closed until November. But you may also want to contact bait alzubair which has an extensive collection of Omani artifacts including kattaras, all of which had fighting thick blades. One with older mounts had a rapier like Portuguese blade and one had an etched European blade. Photos were not allowed there so I followed the rules and didnt take photos of any.

[Andrew]

Everyone:

This thread will not become another acrimonious "debate" regarding the use of these swords. State your positions and move on, please.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Everyone:

This thread will not become another acrimonious "debate" regarding the use of these swords. State your positions and move on, please.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

I very much respect your order and would follow it. But we are being bombarded with false information and lies about a rather prestigious field of arms. It only appropriate that we counter this false information.

I have gained permission to share some pieces. These are all private collections:

Here are saifs with European marks.

[A.alnakkas]

Old iron hilted swords. These are still worn to this day in weddings. But the old hilts would be given leather/silver dress.

[A.alnakkas]

Kattaras (they call all curved swords; kattaras in Oman.)

[A.alnakkas]

for the iron hilted saifs, I had doubts about one of the swords which had an Ethiopian blade. The patina and rust is even though, on the blade and the hilt and the owner commented that Ethiopian blades (I was surprised by his knowledge of the blades origin, where he spoke about an Armenian dealer importing it) were also used in Oman for a time longer than expected. Though I have also found many rehilts, including tulwar blades rehilted as kattaras but those are easy to tell apart.

I have also examined plenty of the new Omani stuff. A dancing sword with no silver sells from 8 riyals to 15 riyals. Which should be about 38 dollars. Its now sold online by a rather suspicious site for a wooping 1500$ dollars and offered as the authentic Omani arms.

Disgraceful, really.

[spiral]

Re fullering & facts not theory's...

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

. In reducing weight the flexibility can be better exercised in dancing and march past since the blades are lighter no.

Actually No. To reduce weight & increase the flexibility you would just grind or forge it thinner.

Doing it in a central groove fuller, will maintain stiffness of the fullered area while reducing weight.

That's not a theory it is a scientific fact.

Otherwise flat or leaf springs would have often ground central fullers on them & I beams would not be I shaped.

It is very elementary physics.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I very much respect your order and would follow it. But we are being bombarded with false information and lies about a rather prestigious field of arms. It only appropriate that we counter this false information.

I have gained permission to share some pieces. These are all private collections:

Here are saifs with European marks.

Salaams...A.alnakkas These are swords that have the mark copied of the Passau Wolf. They are fine examples of the Omani Straight Sayf/Saif.
Enough said for now about those since it is up to the individual how they perceive what they were used for... For now; An agreement to disagree... By the way I am not a liar so please withdraw the remark to which I draw the attention of the Moderators.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Old iron hilted swords. These are still worn to this day in weddings. But the old hilts would be given leather/silver dress.

Salaams... Point of order... This is my favourite sword style... It is the Sayf Yamaani...THe Old Omani Battle Sword and it looks remarkably like the collection of the souk shop owner ...in your following post... You should understand that this is the Old Omani Battle Sword ...probably the original sword was made in Yemen...Hadramaut.

This is the killing weapon which my hypothesis places very far back ... to the 8th Century.... It has its own thread at The Old Omani Battle Sword...The on ein the middle is a special... It came in to the souk owners hand recently and he rehilted it. The blade is German for the Ethiopian market... thence to Sanaa Yemen and onward to Oman where ... The Shop Owner ..rehilted it. Very recently. Some of these variants and similar styles and some with purely German blades even got hoodwinked into some very important collections so good was the work...If you PM me I will even disclose to you how this happened and who did the work...and in which collection they can be discovered... It wasnt me....but I know exactly who did it !!

Without giving too much away do you notice any similarities with the Omani Sayf in this historic masterpiece?? You will find a few clues on my thread on all these swords... The Sayf Yamaani, The Omani Dancing Sword and ...The Omani Kattara. Naturally since this entire subject is under review by our research team it cannot be placed on Forum but I shall advise when it is ready... Meanwhile thank you for posting the pictures which are most helpful . I have access to a collection of 25 such weapons ...and of course since the collection you show is well known to me as the owner is a personal friend... it is also in our domain to study. He actually thought these were Saladin influenced... whereas we suggest much earlier.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Kattaras (they call all curved swords; kattaras in Oman.)

Salaams, This is my friends shop in the Muttrah Souk... Tariq.

The blade is a probable rehilt. What they do is extend the tang and add a pommel. The hilt is then applied Omani Kattara style. Other than that I cannot and must not reveal the other secrets surrounding this sword and other Omani variants but once completed all shall be made clear.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, This is my friends shop in the Muttrah Souk... Tariq.

The blade is a probable rehilt. What they do is extend the tang and add a pommel. The hilt is then applied Omani Kattara style. Other than that I cannot and must not reveal the other secrets surrounding this sword and other Omani variants but once completed all shall be made clear.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes its indeed Tariq's shop. Who happened not to know you, Ibrahim alBaloushi from Alburaimi, owns a shop, has a hypothesis about Omani swords? doesnt ring a bell. No offence is intended. Everything was once a rehilt, its more of an issue whether it was used by its last culture or was made specifically for the purpose of selling to tourists. Its a world different.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

There a lot of wrist flicking going on alright...

I hope you take the time in this secret research to include support for all the questions previously left unanswered.

....

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ..You are a very highly respected dealer and specialist in ethnographic weapons. It stands to reason that you may appreciate the idiosyncrasies of Omani weapons. It is extremely easy for outsiders to confuse the theory...since they have no yardstick to go by regarding Oman. I hope I have been able to raise the curtain somewhat on the predicament surrounding these artifacts... and to show how very different has been the sword development here. They have no relationship to how weapons evolved in China or anywhere else... The specifics of the Omani Straight Sayf which as you know I claim as pageant only...are absolute.

Oddly, all the weapons are joined by an invisible historical line. Peculiarly they are governed by a specific event and historically nothing is written... The key is in the Funun; The unwritten passed down by word of mouth traditions...

Other keys are found in documents as yet not disclosed... but under the full examination of my research department which has exciting disclosures that will ...be interesting. Whilst not every minute aspect has been uncovered ... I believe we are almost 90 % content...uncovered.... but Forum may have to wait a while longer for the entire disclosure as at this time they are under wraps.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Yes its indeed Tariq's shop. Who happened not to know you, Ibrahim alBaloushi from Alburaimi, owns a shop, has a hypothesis about Omani swords? doesnt ring a bell. No offence is intended. Everything was once a rehilt, its more of an issue whether it was used by its last culture or was made specifically for the purpose of selling to tourists. Its a world different.

Salaams A.alnakkas, Well of course he knows me...He is my cousin !

I suppose the confusion is understandable in the blades ... This is largely connected to the truck loads of imported blades that came in from Ethiopia via Yemen ... My thread refers... but you must be aware that you were right there in the absolute pinnacle position standing staring right at the master forger... You couldnt get much closer... There you were talking to the man who since 1970 (and his Father) who are solely responsible for the incredible fiasco surrounding the entire game of hilt and rehilt, of import and export, of illusion and fact ...

Thousands of blades have gone through that workshop and out into the world to the point that an entirely fictional weapon has surfaced... I think it is incredible, amazing and utterly unbelievable. The (almost) entire ethnographic fraternity has been ...tricked??...mislead? wrong footed? ... and you were standing in front of the mystro...and like many other ethnographic specialists you have been well and truly given the treatment... down to his private collection...

He has some great weapons ...mostly rehilts and has even a few museum pieces... I mean ...rehilts in Museums.... So if he has fooled museums it is no wonder he has sold loads to others....

So now that you have seen the light.. I hope... do you see the truth....or not?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas, Well of course he knows me...He is my cousin !

I suppose the confusion is understandable in the blades ... This is largely connected to the truck loads of imported blades that came in from Ethiopia via Yemen ... My thread refers... but you must be aware that you were right there in the absolute pinnacle position standing staring right at the master forger... You couldnt get much closer... There you were talking to the man who since 1970 (and his Father) who are solely responsible for the incredible fiasco surrounding the entire game of hilt and rehilt, of import and export, of illusion and fact ...

Thousands of blades have gone through that workshop and out into the world to the point that an entirely fictional weapon has surfaced... I think it is incredible, amazing and utterly unbelievable. The (almost) entire ethnographic fraternity has been ...tricked??...mislead? wrong footed? ... and you were standing in front of the mystro...and like many other ethnographic specialists you have been well and truly given the treatment... down to his private collection...

He has some great weapons ...mostly rehilts and has even a few museum pieces... I mean ...rehilts in Museums.... So if he has fooled museums it is no wonder he has sold loads to others....

So now that you have seen the light.. I hope... do you see the truth....or not?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

He also sold items to the National Museum which used alot of his items for their inventory. Here goes the source you are using, since you claim he sells fakes and tricked even museums...

And yes, you are probably related to the other 3 million baloushis all over the world. Tariq and I have spoken extensively about other sellers and he have guided me to different sellers in Nizwa, Fanja and other areas that were too distant for me to visit. I mentioned you and your hypothesis, it doesnt ring a bell to him. I told him about rehilts, he showed me some and the guy was decent enough to tell me about recently redressed swords even before I asked.

Yet we have someone here selling an 40$ sword for 1500$ by using false information claiming others to be frauds.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

He also sold items to the National Museum which used alot of his items for their inventory. Here goes the source you are using, since you claim he sells fakes and tricked even museums...

And yes, you are probably related to the other 3 million baloushis all over the world. Tariq and I have spoken extensively about other sellers and he have guided me to different sellers in Nizwa, Fanja and other areas that were too distant for me to visit. I mentioned you and your hypothesis, it doesnt ring a bell to him. I told him about rehilts, he showed me some and the guy was decent enough to tell me about recently redressed swords even before I asked.

Yet we have someone here selling an 40$ sword for 1500$ by using false information claiming others to be frauds.

Salaams ..With all due respect I think you should take breathing exercises to calm yourself down just a little... No one is saying you are a complete donkey for being fooled in a souk ... It happens to everyone... and no; Tariq is not my only source... and I dont know to whom you refer regarding sword prices which are in fact outside the domain of this forum as its commercial and I dont talk commercial because its against the rules as is flaming individuals and accusing folks of being liars... thus the suggestion to breath deeply...

It is actually quite an emotive subject though as adults on Forum I think we are capable of handling... I mean that this is a great and worthy subject and the item started by Kubur is a fine enough sword...

Of course I am absolutely shocked that Tariq , master forger has admitted selling stuff to any Museum ... You should spend some time in The Wallace !! Surely the whole entire point is that you have seen this master forgers work... You know he has been bashing this stuff out for 40 years yet you do not see the link... The swords with straight stiff blades on an Omani long conical flat hilt are forgeries...rehilted from a continuous supply of German / Ethiopian blades transitted from Ethiopia to Yemen and fitted up in Muscat...and sold through Muttrah Souk ...

Admit it... Youve seen it... Now do the right thing and get on the team... They are forgeries... The whole dancer fighter joke has been played out before your very eyes... You have to admit you are mistaken.....No?


What is particularly interesting to me are the sword Talismanic marks and I would prefer to discus those than other aspects you have outlined... like the Omani Battle Swords which are on the wrong thread here... though interesting even if they are recent rehilts ...and with your permission I would like to place them onto The Old Omani Battle Sword thread where they would be more at home.

My question was has the penny dropped ?...on the expert forgeries implanted onto world markets since 1970... or have I to go and get a statement of written fact signed by the Master Forger before it becomes believable? Surely not?...

Most people would accept that since the world body on such swords is this Forum that I would automatically be given the nod on this situation regardless of the stiff competition among some quarters who simply will not accept the facts...Having said that...I greatly admire those opinions and have asked myself many times if I have been mistaken...? Having said that and with all due respect to this learned Forum I have to say that I am convinced I am right... but... the final (if there is such a beast) thrust has not yet been made ... and that you should watch this space...

Forum will be delivered of this absolute scoop and amazing discovery in due course.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

and no; Tariq is not my only source...

Perhaps I was not clear enough. I said that the National Museum IS your source, that Museum has pieces provided to them from Tariq. Now since he is a fraud (which he isnt) means he also managed to trick your source which means your source is not valid enough.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

like the Omani Battle Swords which are on the wrong thread here...

Posting various Omani swords with blades obviously not made in Oman refutes your honestly ridiculous hypothesis (akin to the ancient astronaut hypothesis, if not more ridiculous). Because here is more evidence IN OMAN that they used foreign blades. Not just European blades. And not just on the straight saif, but also on the saif Yamani. And the kattara. Also, if you can, contact Bayt Alzubair, they have many Omani shamshirs with European and Persian blades there. I couldnt take photos as I dont like breaking the rules.

As for the website I speak about, its yours :-)

[Andrew]

Thread locked. Kubar, feel free to start a new thread.

Gentlemen, fair warning: continuation of this tired debate will result in suspension of posting privileges. As I repeat ad nauseum to my own children, I don't care who started it.

However, rest assured: I will finish it.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff