Bali keris ?

KLUNGKLUNG · 8th May 2014, 01:15 PM

Another recently purchased keris. It came dressed up in a Djogja sarong with a new Sandang walikat but I was puzzled by it as my first impression told me this is an old Bali blade fitted in a wrong sarong. The blade is shiny / smooth which could indicate its Balinese origin however the sorsoran is different and so it might be misleading? The peksi showing wear and tear and is tall and sturdy. In the meantime I found a fitting Balinese dress but maybe I have to undress it once more?
Size of the blade: 36,5 cm ( without peksi).
The pamor is very clear and a slewah type: one side showing Lar gangisr and the other Ulur lulut. Correct me if I am wrong.
The Kembang Kacang is bulging but not welded afterwards ( pamor visible)
The strange cup shaped mendak ( or is it a selut?) with a few old inten is a question mark and might be Sumatran?

KLUNGKLUNG · 8th May 2014, 01:18 PM

Additional pics....

Sajen · 8th May 2014, 02:43 PM

Hello,

I would guess also Bali or Lombok for this blade, but not sure.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 8th May 2014, 03:06 PM

I also agree that is not a Javanese blade and would place it either in Bali or Lombok. I'm leaning toward Lombak.
Pretty cool tangkis blade (a different pamor on each side).
That is also an interesting mendak. Not sure about Sumatran. I think it might more likely be of Maduran or Northern Javanese.

GIO · 8th May 2014, 03:07 PM

Java North coast ?

David · 8th May 2014, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Java North coast ?

Gio, do you mean the blade or the mendak?

A. G. Maisey · 9th May 2014, 07:38 AM

I'm not prepared to offer any opinion on point of origin on the basis of the photo, but I will remark that it is more than a little unusual to find pamor work of this nature in a Balinese blade, particularly an older Balinese blade.

Yes, the blade does have a polished surface, but so did Javanese blades in the distant past. If this keris came into Europe a long time ago it might well be Javanese.

The pamor work is very, very refined work, its the quality I expect to see in one of the better Madura blades of the current era.

Possibly this keris requires more than a cursory examination before we can attempt to fix point of origin.

David · 9th May 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm not prepared to offer any opinion on point of origin on the basis of the photo, but I will remark that it is more than a little unusual to find pamor work of this nature in a Balinese blade, particularly an older Balinese blade.

Yes, the blade does have a polished surface, but so did Javanese blades in the distant past. If this keris came into Europe a long time ago it might well be Javanese.

I suppose that is why i was leaning towards Lombok. I have an old tangkis blade which i also believe is from Lombok (i believe you looked at photos of it once and also thought so), though admittedly the pamor work isn't quite this fine and complex. I also have another Bali/Lombok blade that is somewhat similar in dhapur and over all appearance to this one. So putting the two together, Lombok seemed very possible for me.

A. G. Maisey · 9th May 2014, 06:44 PM

Yes, if --- and I do mean "if" --- this blade has Balinese connections, it is certainly more likely to be Lombok than Island of Bali, but I just can't get past that pamor work. I'd need to handle it before I'd be game enough to give an opinion.

Just recently I was looking at a number of fairly ordinary keris that were collected in the last half of the 19th century , direct from old Malaya, Sumatera, Jawa. Very few, if any of these keris have the heavily textured surface that we have come to expect from Jawa and other keris, most would have presented a surface not dissimilar to a Bali blade if they were given a sympathetic clean and stain.

I myself have a few old Javanese blades that went to Holland pre-1800. All these keris have the polished surface that we're used to seeing on Bali blades.

David · 9th May 2014, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, if --- and I do mean "if" --- this blade has Balinese connections, it is certainly more likely to be Lombok than Island of Bali, but I just can't get past that pamor work. I'd need to handle it before I'd be game enough to give an opinion.

I was wondering if you might give a more extensive response on the pamor work itself Alan. Is it simply because it is tangkis, or is it the types of pamor patterns that don't jive with you? Or is it the quality of execution that doesn't seem correct? Again i ask because i have a tangkis blade i have been led to believe is probably of Bali/Lombak origin, though the two patterns are not the same pamor as this one.
I think that there is no question that the surface finish alone is not enough to place this blade in Bali. Certainly old Jawa keris that left the island long ago can have this smooth finish and there are many examples of Lombok keris with rough finishes.

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2014, 10:03 AM

Yes David, certainly. I'm away from home at the moment, and my net connection is intermittent to say the least, so I've been trying to keep anything I post to the net to be as short as possible, but I can expand a bit on my comment.

This style of blade in a Bali blade is normally seen as an older blade, and if look at the example shown here, there appears to be some fraying at the kanyut/buntut urang, and a few areas of light pitting, suggesting that indeed it is an older blade. Yes, this sort of thing can always be created, but in this case I doubt that it has been.

Complex pamor miring in an old Bali blade is something that is extremely rare, and when it does appear it is seldom well executed. In more recent Bali blades, say ones from the first 40 years of the 20th century, and later, we do see complex pamor miring, and we do see much better pamor work than in older blades, but these more recent blades also tend to have much more elaborate and higher quality garap; many older blades are quite plain, with high quality garap being a rarity, rather than something that is usual.

Surface manipulated pamors are sometimes seen in Bali blades, both old or recent, but in older blades even surface manipulated pamors are not very often well executed.

Bali-Lombok blades often exhibit a high degree of craftsmanship, but more often in terms of garap than in complex pamors.

When I look at this blade under discussion what I believe I can see from the photo is an older keris that has beautifully executed pamor on each blade face. The surface is polished as a Bali blade would be, the style is not uncommon in older Bali blades.

In short the blade seems to be full of contradictions.

It could well be an East Javanese blade, a Madura blade, or even a North Coast blade.

It might even be a Bali blade, or a Bali-Lombok blade but I'm not prepared to give any opinion, because I could not defend that opinion on the basis of a photograph.

GIO · 11th May 2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Gio, do you mean the blade or the mendak?

Apologize for the late answer, David.
I intended to mean both the blade and the mendak, but mine was only an hypothesis, after excluding other options.

8th May 2014, 01:15 PM	#1
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Bali keris ? Another recently purchased keris. It came dressed up in a Djogja sarong with a new Sandang walikat but I was puzzled by it as my first impression told me this is an old Bali blade fitted in a wrong sarong. The blade is shiny / smooth which could indicate its Balinese origin however the sorsoran is different and so it might be misleading? The peksi showing wear and tear and is tall and sturdy. In the meantime I found a fitting Balinese dress but maybe I have to undress it once more? Size of the blade: 36,5 cm ( without peksi). The pamor is very clear and a slewah type: one side showing Lar gangisr and the other Ulur lulut. Correct me if I am wrong. The Kembang Kacang is bulging but not welded afterwards ( pamor visible) The strange cup shaped mendak ( or is it a selut?) with a few old inten is a question mark and might be Sumatran? Attached Images

8th May 2014, 01:18 PM	#2
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Additional pics.... Attached Images

8th May 2014, 02:43 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello, I would guess also Bali or Lombok for this blade, but not sure. Regards, Detlef

8th May 2014, 03:06 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I also agree that is not a Javanese blade and would place it either in Bali or Lombok. I'm leaning toward Lombak. Pretty cool tangkis blade (a different pamor on each side). That is also an interesting mendak. Not sure about Sumatran. I think it might more likely be of Maduran or Northern Javanese.

8th May 2014, 03:07 PM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Java North coast ?

9th May 2014, 07:38 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I'm not prepared to offer any opinion on point of origin on the basis of the photo, but I will remark that it is more than a little unusual to find pamor work of this nature in a Balinese blade, particularly an older Balinese blade. Yes, the blade does have a polished surface, but so did Javanese blades in the distant past. If this keris came into Europe a long time ago it might well be Javanese. The pamor work is very, very refined work, its the quality I expect to see in one of the better Madura blades of the current era. Possibly this keris requires more than a cursory examination before we can attempt to fix point of origin.

9th May 2014, 06:44 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, if --- and I do mean "if" --- this blade has Balinese connections, it is certainly more likely to be Lombok than Island of Bali, but I just can't get past that pamor work. I'd need to handle it before I'd be game enough to give an opinion. Just recently I was looking at a number of fairly ordinary keris that were collected in the last half of the 19th century , direct from old Malaya, Sumatera, Jawa. Very few, if any of these keris have the heavily textured surface that we have come to expect from Jawa and other keris, most would have presented a surface not dissimilar to a Bali blade if they were given a sympathetic clean and stain. I myself have a few old Javanese blades that went to Holland pre-1800. All these keris have the polished surface that we're used to seeing on Bali blades.

10th May 2014, 10:03 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes David, certainly. I'm away from home at the moment, and my net connection is intermittent to say the least, so I've been trying to keep anything I post to the net to be as short as possible, but I can expand a bit on my comment. This style of blade in a Bali blade is normally seen as an older blade, and if look at the example shown here, there appears to be some fraying at the kanyut/buntut urang, and a few areas of light pitting, suggesting that indeed it is an older blade. Yes, this sort of thing can always be created, but in this case I doubt that it has been. Complex pamor miring in an old Bali blade is something that is extremely rare, and when it does appear it is seldom well executed. In more recent Bali blades, say ones from the first 40 years of the 20th century, and later, we do see complex pamor miring, and we do see much better pamor work than in older blades, but these more recent blades also tend to have much more elaborate and higher quality garap; many older blades are quite plain, with high quality garap being a rarity, rather than something that is usual. Surface manipulated pamors are sometimes seen in Bali blades, both old or recent, but in older blades even surface manipulated pamors are not very often well executed. Bali-Lombok blades often exhibit a high degree of craftsmanship, but more often in terms of garap than in complex pamors. When I look at this blade under discussion what I believe I can see from the photo is an older keris that has beautifully executed pamor on each blade face. The surface is polished as a Bali blade would be, the style is not uncommon in older Bali blades. In short the blade seems to be full of contradictions. It could well be an East Javanese blade, a Madura blade, or even a North Coast blade. It might even be a Bali blade, or a Bali-Lombok blade but I'm not prepared to give any opinion, because I could not defend that opinion on the basis of a photograph.