Georgian made Russian saber of Polish provenance

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 10:36 PM

Gentelmen,
I submit to you what is if I am not mistaken a mutation of a Russian cavalry officer saber M.1817
I would like to know anything you could tell me about the blade. I am totally ignorant on the subject of Georgian weapons. I cannot decypher the initials of the original owner as well as one of the the inscriptions.
Where in the Caucassus has this blade been made?
Please notice the "gurda" mark as well as the maker's name.
On the pommel a Polish "Jastrzebiec" family coat of arms and owner's initials. Note that the initials are in Latin and not Cirilic what could testify to where the man's loyalties laid...

wolviex · 19th June 2005, 11:09 PM

And again bice object. You've got suprisingly good collection of Polish weapons, and I'm glad about it... and jealous

.

I won't confirm the model of this sabre, because I'm far away from my resources for a few days. What is quite suprise, is the mark on the blade, I mean those sickles, which are usualy and most often seen on the 17th century sabres.

"K.Z" - did you try identify the owner of this sabre. It's not easy, but maybe I will dig some genealogy resources, who knows what can you find out there

Regards

Perkun · 20th June 2005, 12:06 AM

I have done some research. The only name (that I found) that fits the time frame and the coat of arms is Konstanty Zakrzewski (1811 - 1884), a writer, cultural activist. Born 11 February 1811 in Gutow (old Pleszew County).
During the November Uprising of 1830 against the Russians he served in Kaliski Regiment and was an adjutant to Gen. J.N. Umiński.
Recieved Virtuti Militari cross for the battle of Olszynka Grochowska.
I guess it is something to go on. I would love to be able to confirm this possible attribution.

Ian · 20th June 2005, 04:31 AM

Perkun:

Interesting sword.

You might also like to post this on SFI's Antique and Military Sword Forum:
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdi...?s=&forumid=11

I've found the folks over there to be very knowedgeable and helpful about military patterns.

Ian.

ariel · 20th June 2005, 06:49 PM

I am quibbling about the "gurda" mark.
The blade is of Russian manufacture, and even has a name etched on it , something like " Neizvil" , in Cylrillic, but I just cannot see it clearly. Please note that the "gurda" was placed on top of the already existing fullers. It must be a later addition to the blade.

Perkun · 20th June 2005, 07:09 PM

Hi Ariel,
The name seems to be "S. Neishvili" if I read it correctly, a Georgian name and since a gurda mark with strings of dots is typical for Georgian manufactured blades it made me think of Georgian production.
Any record if such a maker?
I have nor encountered a similar example yet but I assume production of private contract blades for well to do Russian officers must have been commonplace and a large part of the economy of the day.

ariel · 20th June 2005, 07:33 PM

I cannot see the "-i" at the end at all. And in general the variant you propose sounds very strange for a Georgian name. Rivkin may know more about it. I'll look in my sources for that or similar name.
Your K. Zakrzewski might have served there before 1830 at which time there were no official Georgian sword shops. Unlikely for him to be an officer (based on the saber) in the Russian Army after participation in the Polish uprising. Another "KZ"?
What about the inscription on the other side?
The monogram ?

Perkun · 20th June 2005, 08:06 PM

Ariel,
The "i" is there, just not very visible on the photos. I can't read the other side :-(
Zakrzewski was not the original owner of this saber. I think it was a captured or purchased by him. He was not a career officer, he was a university student before the uprising.
The initials on the blade belong to the original owner of the blade.

ariel · 21st June 2005, 12:22 AM

Neither Kulinski's nor Astvatsaturyan's book mention Naishvili.

Perkun · 21st June 2005, 07:13 AM

Ariel,
Thank you very much for checking the sources.
By the way, the other side reads "NAYIENO" if I spelled it correctly. Any ideas what it stands for?

ariel · 22nd June 2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkun

Ariel,
Thank you very much for checking the sources.
By the way, the other side reads "NAYIENO" if I spelled it correctly. Any ideas what it stands for?

Beats me....

Rivkin · 22nd June 2005, 01:55 AM

Would it be possible for us to see higher resolution photos ? It's very hard to judge, using low contrast, low res photos like these.

Perkun · 24th June 2005, 03:43 AM

Hi Rivkin,
Here are some close ups. The name of the maker is Cheishvili and not Neshvili as I think I stated before.
The other side I still don't get. Hopefully you can make it out

Jacob · 24th June 2005, 04:06 AM

Looks like "Naumeno". Place name?

ariel · 24th June 2005, 04:22 AM

It's "S. Cheyshvili"

19th June 2005, 10:36 PM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Georgian made Russian saber of Polish provenance Gentelmen, I submit to you what is if I am not mistaken a mutation of a Russian cavalry officer saber M.1817 I would like to know anything you could tell me about the blade. I am totally ignorant on the subject of Georgian weapons. I cannot decypher the initials of the original owner as well as one of the the inscriptions. Where in the Caucassus has this blade been made? Please notice the "gurda" mark as well as the maker's name. On the pommel a Polish "Jastrzebiec" family coat of arms and owner's initials. Note that the initials are in Latin and not Cirilic what could testify to where the man's loyalties laid... Attached Images Last edited by Perkun; 20th June 2005 at 02:51 AM.

20th June 2005, 12:06 AM	#3
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	I have done some research. The only name (that I found) that fits the time frame and the coat of arms is Konstanty Zakrzewski (1811 - 1884), a writer, cultural activist. Born 11 February 1811 in Gutow (old Pleszew County). During the November Uprising of 1830 against the Russians he served in Kaliski Regiment and was an adjutant to Gen. J.N. Umiński. Recieved Virtuti Militari cross for the battle of Olszynka Grochowska. I guess it is something to go on. I would love to be able to confirm this possible attribution. Last edited by Perkun; 20th June 2005 at 03:09 AM.

24th June 2005, 03:43 AM	#13
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Rivkin, Here are some close ups. The name of the maker is Cheishvili and not Neshvili as I think I stated before. The other side I still don't get. Hopefully you can make it out Attached Images

19th June 2005, 11:09 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	And again bice object. You've got suprisingly good collection of Polish weapons, and I'm glad about it... and jealous . I won't confirm the model of this sabre, because I'm far away from my resources for a few days. What is quite suprise, is the mark on the blade, I mean those sickles, which are usualy and most often seen on the 17th century sabres. "K.Z" - did you try identify the owner of this sabre. It's not easy, but maybe I will dig some genealogy resources, who knows what can you find out there Regards

20th June 2005, 04:31 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Perkun: Interesting sword. You might also like to post this on SFI's Antique and Military Sword Forum: http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdi...?s=&forumid=11 I've found the folks over there to be very knowedgeable and helpful about military patterns. Ian.

20th June 2005, 06:49 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am quibbling about the "gurda" mark. The blade is of Russian manufacture, and even has a name etched on it , something like " Neizvil" , in Cylrillic, but I just cannot see it clearly. Please note that the "gurda" was placed on top of the already existing fullers. It must be a later addition to the blade.

20th June 2005, 07:09 PM	#6
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hi Ariel, The name seems to be "S. Neishvili" if I read it correctly, a Georgian name and since a gurda mark with strings of dots is typical for Georgian manufactured blades it made me think of Georgian production. Any record if such a maker? I have nor encountered a similar example yet but I assume production of private contract blades for well to do Russian officers must have been commonplace and a large part of the economy of the day.

20th June 2005, 07:33 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I cannot see the "-i" at the end at all. And in general the variant you propose sounds very strange for a Georgian name. Rivkin may know more about it. I'll look in my sources for that or similar name. Your K. Zakrzewski might have served there before 1830 at which time there were no official Georgian sword shops. Unlikely for him to be an officer (based on the saber) in the Russian Army after participation in the Polish uprising. Another "KZ"? What about the inscription on the other side? The monogram ?

20th June 2005, 08:06 PM	#8
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Ariel, The "i" is there, just not very visible on the photos. I can't read the other side :-( Zakrzewski was not the original owner of this saber. I think it was a captured or purchased by him. He was not a career officer, he was a university student before the uprising. The initials on the blade belong to the original owner of the blade.

21st June 2005, 12:22 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Neither Kulinski's nor Astvatsaturyan's book mention Naishvili.

21st June 2005, 07:13 AM	#10
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Ariel, Thank you very much for checking the sources. By the way, the other side reads "NAYIENO" if I spelled it correctly. Any ideas what it stands for?

22nd June 2005, 01:55 AM	#12
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Would it be possible for us to see higher resolution photos ? It's very hard to judge, using low contrast, low res photos like these.

24th June 2005, 04:06 AM	#14
Jacob Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14	Looks like "Naumeno". Place name?

24th June 2005, 04:22 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It's "S. Cheyshvili"