The future of blade technology

[Atlantia]

This has always been a 'pet' interest of mine.
I am a lifelong science fiction fan and am always interested when I see/read visions of future weapons tech, especially when its based around the blade.

In 'recent' years we have seen some very interesting developements in knife tech, alloys and ceramics have produced some great results. I wonder where forumites see the evolution of the blade heading?

[kisak]

Materials science seems to be progressing at decent rate overall right now. On the other hand, I suspect that there's not much money in making a betetr blade (especially not sword-sized ones) compared to making a better car or fighter jet, and the research budgets are sot likely accordingly. Thus, progress in the field of blades might be limited to scraping up the crumbs falling from the table of the "big ones".

As much of materials engineering is in optimising materials for specific applications, useful crumbs for blade-smiths may be few. Much of the current work for example is dedicated to making things lighter, which might not be much use with knives, and possibly directly negative for some swords.

Looking at various material types, ceramics are as usual generally hard and brittle. This allows for a very sharp edge, but will struggle with shock and shearing forces. Advances there might result in tougher materials, but I think it'll be a long time until we see (affordable) ceramics (or ceramic-based composites) reach quite the same toughness as we can get with good steel or similar. As such, ceramics seem to be mostly of interest to knives, as they would appear to have a much higher tolerance for brittle behaviour than swords. Kitchen knives, scalpels and similar being particularity suitable for this (and we already see some such on the market), while survival knives may be slower in adopting ceramics. Another thing speaking against ceramic sword blades are the small series made of such, IIRC ceramics are often difficult to handle with methods suitable for small production runs.

For metals there seems to be some new alloys around for knives, but on the whole I suspect that steel will reign supreme for a very long time to come, as it's simply a very good material for such tasks. The widespread use of steel in our society also means that there's a lot of time and money going into improving steels, and while much of that may be of a limited use to blades (for example creating methods to harden and temper steel which would otherwise have been used unhardened, or improving fatigue resistance far beyond the point which most blades will ever know), some may filter down. Work on steel alloys which can be turned bainitic with greater and greater ease for example might be good for blades, as there seems to be a possibility of reaching greater strength with such steel than with martensitic variants (ie steel which has been hardened and tempered in a traditional fashion) while retaining a suitable hardness. The fact that those working on bainitic steels can throw around the "nano"-buzzword in their funding applications doesn't hurt either (the crystalline structure of bainite being made up of very thin plates, the thickness of which is supposedly down around the nano scale).

The University of Cambridge has some interesting material online relating to bainitic steels:
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/newbainite.html
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2005/bulk.html
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/bainite.html
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2005/current.html

On a longer timeframe, metals with even more exotic microstructures (amorphous, quasicrystalline, nanocrystalline variants, mixes thereof) might present one possible path of evolution, though it might be a bit early to say.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

This has always been a 'pet' interest of mine.
I am a lifelong science fiction fan and am always interested when I see/read visions of future weapons tech, especially when its based around the blade.

In 'recent' years we have seen some very interesting developements in knife tech, alloys and ceramics have produced some great results. I wonder where forumites see the evolution of the blade heading?

Larry Niven's Variable Knife ...
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=58

[katana]

The light sabre seems to me to be the best future possibilty........even steel sucumbs to lazers.

May the force be with you
David

[Jim McDougall]

"...the secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery.
You must learn its riddle Conan, you must learn its discipline."
-"Conan the Barbarian"
Robert E. Howard

As I have noted many times, metallurgy is far beyond my understanding, but must admit Gene has come up with an intriguing topic, and Kisak has truly launched this thread with an wonderfully well written perspective.

While my focus has always been on the history of weapons, I must admit that in early times the mysteries of steel, especially of Damascus, certainly must have seemed like a contemporary form of science fiction or occult would perhaps be a better description.

We know that the nickel in meteorites was probably seen as almost magical in properties to be used in imbuing blades with powers that would excel.
I often wonder if perhaps, one day the minerals of other planets might reveal metals not known to us...maybe far in the future, but in the spirit of the topic, something that comes to mind.

I am not clear on exactly how long ago the secrets of Damascus steel were rediscovered by metallurgists in the west, or exactly how successful this was done, but it does illustrate how tenacious the search for ever improved metals has remained, and certainly will continue.

All best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Hi Jim,

I'd ask: better blade for what?

I think we're going to see some interesting new metal and metal glass pocket knives. We might see some sort of "magic machete" as Bruce Sterling suggest (basically, a super-sharp ceramic machete that was mass-produced).

Thing is, even a light saber or a variable knife aren't as fast as your basic 9 mm pistol, and they're nowhere near as destructive as an AK-47. I doubt we'll see swords come back into warfare anytime soon, except for a few, exotic applications.

On the other hand, there's a huge number of uses for tools and tool/weapons, and that's where I think we're going to see some neat developments.

As for materials, I'm waiting to see metal glasses go mainstream. These are basically super-sharp steel, version 17 (or whatever). Same story, different day. I'd also predict some interesting composites based on metallic recreations of shells and teeth-type biocomposites (basically, if you can make a hard tooth out of calcium carbonate by fiddling with the structure of the molecules, what could you do with steel?).

I'd also expect (perhaps!) the equivalent of a smart knife, not a weapon necessarily, but a mobile swiss army knife equivalent that could cut while you held, and could consult on how to solve a particular tool use problem. I can think of a number of situations where having the knife do the cutting would have been really useful.

I'd love to see a variable knife, but I think that goofy katana-ish thing that Sulu was using in the new Star Trek movie is vaguely more probable.

For collectors, what I think is interesting is how the idea of "genuine" has changed. Now days, "genuine" blades come with provenance, ID tags, numbered sets, and so forth--even websites, collector's clubs, and a materials list so that they can get past CITES inspectors. We still have ethnographic weapons, but rather than marking them with tribal designs and natural materials, we put all these data markers on them, and associate them with a cloud of data points talking about what they are and where they've been. If you step back and think about it from the perspective of history, that's about as bizarre a cultural development as some of those 10 weirdest blades we talked about.

My 0.000002 cents,

F

[Atlantia]

Hey Guys, great replys.

I do think this is an interesting subject.
As Fearn points out, the 'knife' in whatever form is not going to replace the 'gun' as we know it, and similarly, the technology we currently use in projectile weapons is unlikely to ever be replaced by 'star trek' style directed energy weapons for the simple reason that 'guns' are simply too cheap, reliable and effective.
We may see advances in bullets, propellants, a revisiting of the HK Caseless tech etc, but essentially guns work, and they work very well while being durable easy to use.

But thats not to say that a 'combat' blade has no place.

Sorry David,
I can't see light sabres ever being a reality
Well, beyond my master-replicas version!
Too much power needed, too many containment problems, too dangerous to the user etc.

But I can see us developing technology that blurs the lines between organic and inorganic. Blades 'grown' with a cutting edge a few molecules thick (or a single molecule) that would be able to split anything they are used against with ease, and if they are chipped or damaged, 'healing' in their scabbards while not in use.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by katana

The light sabre seems to me to be the best future possibilty........even steel sucumbs to lazers.

May the force be with you
David

Anything succumbs to a wire one molecule thick .

[M ELEY]

The knife has always been around as a tool and back-up weapon to the soldier even to this day. Superior gunfire or not, the blade will go on. Whether it be for the silent kill or when the gun runs out of ammo...
OK, variable sword, light saber... How about the ultimate in folded steel. Like the Japanese katana of old, only this steel is compacted impossibly dense in a portable black hole and the blade can cut through anything-

[fearn]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The knife has always been around as a tool and back-up weapon to the soldier even to this day. Superior gunfire or not, the blade will go on. Whether it be for the silent kill or when the gun runs out of ammo...
OK, variable sword, light saber... How about the ultimate in folded steel. Like the Japanese katana of old, only this steel is compacted impossibly dense in a portable black hole and the blade can cut through anything-

Yup. That blade would truly suck. Black hole joke

Any black hole you could swing as a blade would probably be smaller than an atom in diameter--good luck intercepting anything with it. It would also probably evaporate in a haze of Hawking radiation while you were holding it, to the tune of a couple of pounds of e=mc2 goodness.

Otherwise, it's a neat idea.

As for folded steel, one legitimate thing might be fine control of the folds to maximize toughness on the body and hardness on the edge. One could even visualize making the steel "felted"--having a tangled crystal structure something like jade, with an amorphous metal-glass edge that would be ridiculously hard. We don't have that kind of metallurgical control yet, but when we do, I'm sure someone's going to try to make a sword with it.

As for a wire one molecule thick, has anyone ever thought that wonderful statement through? I always wanted a variable knife as a kid, but you know, there's lots of monomolecular things that are really blunt and fragile. DNA comes to mind. Glass, the sharpest macro-solid, is amorphous. Go figure.

Atlantia, I agree that someone's going to do something interesting with molecular materials. I always look at nature, though, since it's our best example of room temperature nanotechnology, and it's been around for a few hundred million years. Anyway, not a lot of animals sharpen their teeth. Rather more of them shed and regrow teeth. I suspect there's a reason for this, and I'll bet that reason would cause trouble for any edge regenerating sheath. On the other hand, bones are fairly fragile, and when you're working out, a lot of micro-cracks develop, and are fixed almost instantly by bone cells. For a nanotech sword, I'd expect something that could heal of itself of stress fractures before the blade chipped or broke. Of course, such a blade would take energy, and probably the regenerative cells would eventually wear out, but it would be neat.

Best,

F

[M ELEY]

Fearn, you ionized my black hole sword! Arrrhh...

I like your theory on folded steel and crystalization. The manipulation of atomic molecules to make new structures isn't science fiction, but fact. We've seen it in the creation of "modern" diamonds and in the rarest of all substances, Californium. It should be interesting to see what comes about in our lifetime. They are already using highly concentrated streams of water that can cut through steel! Imagine that futuristic sword or water gun
Yes, I know, impractical, but an interesting weapon.

[kisak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not clear on exactly how long ago the secrets of Damascus steel were rediscovered by metallurgists in the west, or exactly how successful this was done,

A while back I had the chance to search for material on wootz in a rather large database of scientific papers. Amongst what little I found was one account of Indian steelmaking procedures, describing the crucible method, from 1829, and one chemical analysis of the composition of wootz from 1852. So while we might only have arrived at our current level of understanding quite recently (thanks to Verhoeven et.al), it seems a basic idea has been with us for quite some time.

On the composition of wootz, or Indian steel • SHORT COMMUNICATION
Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 54, Issue 3, September 1852, Pages 212-213
T. H. Henry

On the manufacture of iron and steel (Wootz) in India: from "A journey from Madras, through the countries of Mysore, Canara, and Malabar" • SHORT COMMUNICATION
Journal of the Franklin Institute, Volume 7, Issue 1, January 1829, Pages 7-16
Francis Buchanan

Originally Posted by fearn

I'm waiting to see metal glasses go mainstream. /.../ based on metallic recreations of shells and teeth-type biocomposites

Isn't there a problem with those where they tend to behave in a rather brittle fashion, despite being quite tough on paper? I seem to recall hearing that they had a nasty tendency of focusing all the stress in one point, leading to that point failing while the rest of the material was basically just sitting there and twiddling its thumbs.

As for those biocomposites, I'm not entirely familiar with them, but there's a vague memory in my head of them using extremely thin layers of the material to get the properties? In that case, it actually sounds pretty close to the bainitic steels, as those seem to obtain their properties from the aggregates of extremely thin crystal plates. (This would seem to be a very different concept from the type of folding traditionally done to steel in many parts of the world, with very different results.)


Regarding the monomolecular edges mentioned by a few people here, one thing to remember is that molecules vary greatly in size. Diamond crystals are actually single molecules, and can reach quite a few centimetres in size (metals on the other hand aren't molecular at all, but we can create single metal crystals of impressive size, often for turbine blades, the lack of grain size hardening effects might make such unsuitable for blades though).

I also wonder if there might not be a point where the exact width of the outermost edge doesn't really matter all that much any more, as the rest of the knife needs to be pushed into the material as well to the depth of the cut.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Rick

Larry Niven's Variable Knife ...
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=58

Its a great idea! There have been a couple of great 'screen versions' of Nivens idea too!

If you can stomach your sci-fi with a large dose of Kevin Sorbo, there is a great episode of Andromeda called 'The Honey trap' where a Nitzschean Princess uses a 'Mono-Molecular Lash'. Its a small handle with about 4 feet of whip-like thread that snakes out from it.
It cuts up everything from walls to people!

Also if you can, check out 'Xchange' starring Steven Baldwin and Kyle McLaughlin. Great fun, and it also has a version of the variable knife in it. This time its actually a 'pull out' thread where you hold both ends and cut with the thread between.

Of course neither are held 'rigid' with the slaver stasis field, but the idea is the same.

Moving away from Nivens vision to more general Sci-Fi applications of blades..
Lucas Star Wars vision of the Light Sabre is clearly one of the most iconic, but also one of the least likely to ever exist. However, there ARE more interesting ideas if you look at the other bladed weapons used in the films. The Gamorean Guards and others carry 'Vibroblades' which seem to be a pre light sabre technology.
There do seem to be some possibilities when you imagine a 'dampened' separate ultra high speed vibrating edge on a weapon.

Of course my personal favourite sword in a sci-fi film is this:


Regards
Gene

P.S.
I made the Cylon Sword. Its got a functional polished tempered steel blade, and solid aluminium handle parts cut with a grinder and hand polished.
It sits near my Centurion:

[fearn]

Originally Posted by kisak

Isn't there a problem with those where they tend to behave in a rather brittle fashion, despite being quite tough on paper? I seem to recall hearing that they had a nasty tendency of focusing all the stress in one point, leading to that point failing while the rest of the material was basically just sitting there and twiddling its thumbs.

As for those biocomposites, I'm not entirely familiar with them, but there's a vague memory in my head of them using extremely thin layers of the material to get the properties? In that case, it actually sounds pretty close to the bainitic steels, as those seem to obtain their properties from the aggregates of extremely thin crystal plates. (This would seem to be a very different concept from the type of folding traditionally done to steel in many parts of the world, with very different results.)
...
I also wonder if there might not be a point where the exact width of the outermost edge doesn't really matter all that much any more, as the rest of the knife needs to be pushed into the material as well to the depth of the cut.

Good points on the metal glasses. The answer is, I'm not sure where they are in development, and given the way stressed silicon glass works (as described), I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar problems with metal glass. I think some knife makers were experimenting with them, but they're out of my price range.

I absolutely agree about the problem of blade weight. I have a ceramic paring knife, and it sits there, mostly unused. It's ridiculously sharp, of course, but it's also about as light as a plastic knife, and the blade chips if it hits bone. The light weight means that it's actually more work to cut with it (no mass to work with) and the ceramic chips if it hits bone the wrong way. I do have a diamond hone that can resharpen it, but basically, it's less useful than the first-generation ginsu knife that I inherited from my grandmother, although it cost ~100x more.

The variable knife suffers from this problem. You have the edge, but you've got to lever the darn thing. Slice whips (the generic cyberpunk name for monomolecular wires with no support) have the same problem of no weight behind the edge, and you've got to be really, really careful that you don't garrote yourself when you're swinging one.

Anyway, I'll leave you with a retro-futuristic knife, made from modern materials in a paleolithic shape. That's right, it's a handaxe made from modern ceramics. Gotta love those designers (Link). Anybody want to try it?

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Kisak, thank you so much for the wonderful notes on Damascus, and for the references.....now there's something I can understand!

You guys are completely incredible here, I had no idea there was so much knowledge on all this metallurgy etc out there, let alone the astounding knowledge of physics and dynamics. I have never been able to comprehend science fiction, nor in general fiction, being too much a historian I guess. I have always admired those who could 'let go' and wander into worlds far beyond the limitations of our own known world.
Its truly enjoyable watching the discussion here, great fun guys!!!

It would seem our forum has reached dimensions far beyond the scope we imagined.

All very best regards,
Jim