A UNUSUAL SHARKTOOTH TOOL

VANDOO · 15th October 2013, 07:16 PM

I RECENTLY AQUIRED A SMALL SHARKTOOTH TOOL. IT IS SET WITH SMALL TIGERSHARK TEETH AND TIED WITH CORD WHICH LOOKS LIKE HUMAN HAIR UNDER THE MICROSCOPE. THE HOLES IN THE TEETH ARE NOT ROUND AND THE WOOD SHOWS A TEXTURE OFTEN SEEN WHEN RATS TEETH WERE USED FOR CARVING. THE ITEM SHOWS WEAR AND AGE BUT NOT MUCH PATINA AS THE WOOD APPEARS TO BE A TYPE OF MAHOGANY WHICH DOSEN'T SHOW MUCH PATINA.
THE FINGER HOLES ARE ONLY BIG ENOUGH FOR THE TIPS OF TWO OF MY FINGERS WITH THE THIRD FINGER SUPPORTING THE TAIL. WEAR TO THE FIRST SHARK TOOTH BUT THE OTHERS STILL SHARP. 6.5 CM. L 28MM WIDE.
MY GUESSES ARE 1. IS IT COULD BE USED FOR SOME CEREMONY PERHAPS SCARIFICATION OR CUTTING THE CHIEFS HAIR ECT
2. USE BY WOMEN FOR WEAVING OR TAPA MAKEING ECT.

PERHAPS SOMEONE MAY RECOGNIZE THE ITEM AND CAN IDENTIFY IT FOR ME OR MAKE THEIR OWN GUESS. THANKS

Henk · 15th October 2013, 08:20 PM

It is a nuckle duster. I have some real old books and if remember well in one of them in the part of the people who used weapons with sharktheeth there is a picture of such a weapon. If i have some time i wil scan the page if i can find it.

That you're fingers are too big for the holes, well

KraVseR · 15th October 2013, 08:51 PM

And where you acquired it? What country is this?

Sajen · 15th October 2013, 10:09 PM

Without reading the comment from Henk was my first impression as well, a knuckle duster. Very intersting item!

Regards,

Detlef

jwkiernan · 16th October 2013, 06:42 AM

Vandoo,

I have lurked on the form for years, but now that I have retired from Active Duty, I can play a bit more!

Polynesian are not my area of expertise (not sure if I have one), but have a great interest in the Polynesian cultures and have been able to see some great collections of weapons and artifacts.

That said the wood (from the photo's) almost looks like Koa (Acacia Koa) or Kauila (Alphitonia Ponderosa) (both Koa and Kauila look similar) native to the Hawaiian Islands.

There are several different shark toothed weapons used in the Hawaiian Martial art of Lua. The most often pictured is a leiomano/Palau Papa Niho Mano (paddle shaped/oval mirror shaped with teeth around the outside), however there are several other shark toothed weapons that I am unaware of the true name for but are referred to as knuckledusters. These were weapons and only used as such from my reading (again, not intensive).

The Maori also utilized a shark toothed knife called a Maripi...every specimen of these I have observed is very heavily carved in the Maori style.

The specimen you have recently acquired looks as if it slips over two fingers with the rest of the curved guard if you will, protects the other two fingers...just my tow cents for what it is worth...neat piece! Congrats!

Respectfully,

John

VANDOO · 16th October 2013, 07:16 AM

UNFORTUNATRLY THE SELLER HAD NO IDEA WHAT IT IS , NOR DO I. IT WAS UNUSUAL ENOUGH AND SOMETHING I HAD NOT SEEN BEFORE SO I TOOK A CHANCE ON IT. I HAVE SEEN PICTURES AND HAVE SOME SHARK TEETH KNUCKLE DUSTERS BUT THEY ARE NOTHING LIKE THIS ITEM. THE SMALL SIZE AND FRAGILE NATURE OF THE DEVICE LEAD ME TO SUSPECT IT WAS NOT A WEAPON HOPEFULLY HENK WILL HAVE SOME PICTURES OF SOMETHING SIMULAR TO HELP IDENTIFY IT. I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY SOMEONE WOULD GO TO THE TROUBLE OF MAKEING THIS JUST FOR A COMMON TOOL WHEN ONE LOSE SHARK TOOTH WOULD SERVE MOST TOOL FUNCTIONS BETTER.

SO PERHAPS CEREMONIAL OR A RATHER FRAGILE INEFECIENT WEAPON.

A PICTURE OF FULL ARMOR WITH ONE TYPE OF HAND GAURD/KNUCKLE DUSTERS. I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A PICTURE OF MINE .

colin henshaw · 16th October 2013, 09:00 AM

Hi VANDOO

Apologies for being negative, ...they did make knuckleduster type weapons in Hawaii, but my gut feeling is that this is a fairly recent hobbyist production, or something made for selling.

Though it looks well made, using traditional material.

VANDOO · 16th October 2013, 05:35 PM

FROM THE PICTURES I THOUGHT THE SAME AND EXPECTED SOMETHING MORE RECENT WHEN I BOUGHT IT. BUT AFTER TAKING A CLOSE LOOK THRU THE MICROSCOPE IT LOOKS OLD. THE HAIR CORD IS OLD AND BRITTLE AND FRAYED THE FIRST TWO SHARK TEETH ARE WORN WHICH TAKES A LOT OF USE AS THEY ARE HARD. THE WOOD SHOWS WEAR AND AGE DISCOLORATION AND THERE ARE GROOVES IN SOME AREAS THAT LOOK LIKE THE MARKS LEFT WHEN USING RATS TEETH FOR CARVING TOOLS. THE TWO FINGER HOLES LOOK REMARKABLY ROUND BUT ARE NOT PERFECTLY ROUND THEY SHOW NO EVIDENCE OF MODERN TOOLS. THE HOLES IN THE SHARK TEETH APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH PRIMATIVE TOOLS AND NO TWO ARE ALIKE.
IF IT IS A RECENTLY MADE REPLICA MADE FOR SALE THE ONE MAKING IT WAS AN EXPERT AND HE REALLY KNEW HIS STUFF AND PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO IT. THE ONLY THING I SEE THAT LOOKS MORE RECENT IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE SHELLAC OR SOMETHING ON THE END KNOTS ON THE HAIR CORDS LIKELY TO PUT THERE TO PRESERVE THEM.
NEW OR OLD I LIKE IT

AND HOPEFULLY WITH LUCK WE WILL SEE A GOOD PROVENANCED EXAMPLE TO BE FOUND SO WE CAN IDENTIFY THE FORM AND USE OF THE ITEM AND PERHAPS EVEN THE ORIGIN.

fearn · 17th October 2013, 08:40 PM

I've seen some lovely modern shark-tooth weapons made from koa wood in shops in Maui and Hilo. Gorgeous things, impeccably crafted by native Hawaiians, but very modern. I'm with those who think this is a modern production. The ancient Hawaiians didn't have the drills to make those beautiful round holes, and their knuckledusters were wrapped around the hand with sennit.

It may indeed be associated with the (still-extant) martial art of Lua, but if so, it's a modern weapon, not an antique one.

F

Sajen · 17th October 2013, 09:19 PM

Sorry, I am disagree with the ones who think that this item is rather recent. What I can see from the pictures, the wood have a lot of wear. And I have respect to the eyes of a long time collector of ethnograhic items. The bindings from hair I never suspect to see by a recent item. And btw, I have seen nearly perfect drilled holes in sometimes very hard materials made from natives with simple tools.

Regards,

Detlef

VANDOO · 17th October 2013, 11:54 PM

I AM LUCKY TO HAVE ACCESS TO BOTH MODERN AND OLD ITEMS IN MY COLLECTIONS SO CAN DO COMPARASONS. THE USE OF A GOOD MICROSCOPE ALLOWS ME TO MAKE PROFESSIONAL OBSERVATIONS AND COMPARISONS. THOUGH I AM NOT A LICENSED CONSERVATOR I HAVE MADE OBSERVATIONS FOR MANY YEARS OF MANY ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS WEAPONS BEING A SMALL PORTION THEREOF. I HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF SHARK TOOTH AND OTHER TYPES OF FISH TEETH AND BONE WEAPONS AND A FEW TOOLS AVAILABLE BUT THIS ITEM WE DISCUSS HERE IS NEW TO ME. HANDELING THE ITEM I SUSPECT IT TO BE A TOOL OR CEREMONIAL ITEM FOR REASONS STATED ABOVE NOT A WEAPON. PERHAPS THE BISHOP MUSEUM OR ONE OF THE OTHER BIG MUSEUMS MAY HAVE AN EXAMPLE IN THEIR EXTENSIVE COLLECTIONS OR REFRENCES. I AM LIMITED IN BOTH FIELDS IN COMPARISON BUT DO THE BEST I CAN. THE HAIR LOOKS HUMAN AND IS TOO BRITTLE WITH AGE TO HAVE BEEN WORKED RECENTLY I COMPARED IT TO SEVERAL MANDAU I HAVE WITH HUMAN HAIR THAT ARE AROUND 150 YEARS OR OLDER. THE DUST SEEN IS NOT ARTIFICIALLY ADDED MUD OR GRIME AS I OFTEN SEE IN ITEMS FROM CHINA AND NEW GUINEA.
ATTACHED IS A LITTLE TABLE EXHIBIT OF TOOTHED WEAPONS I BROUGHT TO TIMONIUM IN 2007

fearn · 18th October 2013, 12:01 AM

There are a lot of ways to make hair brittle (it's worth asking a woman about this, as things as simple as sun, dyeing, and blowdrying make hair very brittle), and I've got some tiger shark teeth I purchased years ago on eBay for a shark's tooth weapon I never got around to making.

Sorry, I don't buy that this is old. The design simply isn't old. As others have noted, it's a half-way decent knuckleduster. However, if it's been artificially aged, I'll change my opinion about whether it was created as a Lua tool or art piece, and start thinking darker thoughts.

F

VANDOO · 18th October 2013, 01:39 AM

OK YOU WIN, DISREGARD ALL I HAVE POSTED ON IT.

PERHAPS ITS A MINNIEHUNI KNUCKLEDUSTER FROM HAWAII
IF IT IS A RECENT FAKE THEY DID THE BEST JOB I HAVE EVER SEEN AND SOLD IT WAY TOO CHEAP FOR THE WORK THAT WENT INTO IT ONLY A FEW HOURS PAY AT MC DONALDS WOULD PAY FOR IT. FROM THE PICTURES I THOUGHT IT WAS RECENT WHEN I BOUGHT IT BUT IT INTERESTED ME AND THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKED GOOD THE PRICE WAS RIGHT AND NO OTHER BIDDERS SO I TOOK A CHANCE. THE ITEM IS EXTREAMLY SMALL, DELICATE AND FRAGILE. I JUST HOPE TO FIND OUT IF IT IS A KNOWN ARTEFACT AND WHAT IT IS AND ITS USE.
IF IT IS A MODERN FANTASY ITEM MADE USING VERY SOPHISTICATED PRIMATIVE TOOLS, METHODS AND ADVANCED AGEING TECKNIQUES SOMEONE VERY SKILLED SURE WORKS CHEAP AND I WOULD LOVE TO HIRE THEM TO MAKE ME A FEW REPLICA ITEMS THAT ARE USUALLY FAR OUT OF MY PRICE RANGE.

fearn · 18th October 2013, 05:43 AM

A gentlemens' disagreement, perhaps?

Actually, there is a good point here about human hair. We tend to uncritically use its presence as a guide to authenticity, but it wouldn't be at all hard to get hair to use as a binding, if someone either wanted to experiment with it (for authenticity's sake) or to make a fake.

F

15th October 2013, 07:16 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A UNUSUAL SHARKTOOTH TOOL I RECENTLY AQUIRED A SMALL SHARKTOOTH TOOL. IT IS SET WITH SMALL TIGERSHARK TEETH AND TIED WITH CORD WHICH LOOKS LIKE HUMAN HAIR UNDER THE MICROSCOPE. THE HOLES IN THE TEETH ARE NOT ROUND AND THE WOOD SHOWS A TEXTURE OFTEN SEEN WHEN RATS TEETH WERE USED FOR CARVING. THE ITEM SHOWS WEAR AND AGE BUT NOT MUCH PATINA AS THE WOOD APPEARS TO BE A TYPE OF MAHOGANY WHICH DOSEN'T SHOW MUCH PATINA. THE FINGER HOLES ARE ONLY BIG ENOUGH FOR THE TIPS OF TWO OF MY FINGERS WITH THE THIRD FINGER SUPPORTING THE TAIL. WEAR TO THE FIRST SHARK TOOTH BUT THE OTHERS STILL SHARP. 6.5 CM. L 28MM WIDE. MY GUESSES ARE 1. IS IT COULD BE USED FOR SOME CEREMONY PERHAPS SCARIFICATION OR CUTTING THE CHIEFS HAIR ECT 2. USE BY WOMEN FOR WEAVING OR TAPA MAKEING ECT. PERHAPS SOMEONE MAY RECOGNIZE THE ITEM AND CAN IDENTIFY IT FOR ME OR MAKE THEIR OWN GUESS. THANKS Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 15th October 2013 at 07:27 PM.

16th October 2013, 07:16 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATRLY THE SELLER HAD NO IDEA WHAT IT IS , NOR DO I. IT WAS UNUSUAL ENOUGH AND SOMETHING I HAD NOT SEEN BEFORE SO I TOOK A CHANCE ON IT. I HAVE SEEN PICTURES AND HAVE SOME SHARK TEETH KNUCKLE DUSTERS BUT THEY ARE NOTHING LIKE THIS ITEM. THE SMALL SIZE AND FRAGILE NATURE OF THE DEVICE LEAD ME TO SUSPECT IT WAS NOT A WEAPON HOPEFULLY HENK WILL HAVE SOME PICTURES OF SOMETHING SIMULAR TO HELP IDENTIFY IT. I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY SOMEONE WOULD GO TO THE TROUBLE OF MAKEING THIS JUST FOR A COMMON TOOL WHEN ONE LOSE SHARK TOOTH WOULD SERVE MOST TOOL FUNCTIONS BETTER. SO PERHAPS CEREMONIAL OR A RATHER FRAGILE INEFECIENT WEAPON. A PICTURE OF FULL ARMOR WITH ONE TYPE OF HAND GAURD/KNUCKLE DUSTERS. I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A PICTURE OF MINE . Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 16th October 2013 at 08:13 AM.

17th October 2013, 11:54 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM LUCKY TO HAVE ACCESS TO BOTH MODERN AND OLD ITEMS IN MY COLLECTIONS SO CAN DO COMPARASONS. THE USE OF A GOOD MICROSCOPE ALLOWS ME TO MAKE PROFESSIONAL OBSERVATIONS AND COMPARISONS. THOUGH I AM NOT A LICENSED CONSERVATOR I HAVE MADE OBSERVATIONS FOR MANY YEARS OF MANY ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS WEAPONS BEING A SMALL PORTION THEREOF. I HAVE A WIDE RANGE OF SHARK TOOTH AND OTHER TYPES OF FISH TEETH AND BONE WEAPONS AND A FEW TOOLS AVAILABLE BUT THIS ITEM WE DISCUSS HERE IS NEW TO ME. HANDELING THE ITEM I SUSPECT IT TO BE A TOOL OR CEREMONIAL ITEM FOR REASONS STATED ABOVE NOT A WEAPON. PERHAPS THE BISHOP MUSEUM OR ONE OF THE OTHER BIG MUSEUMS MAY HAVE AN EXAMPLE IN THEIR EXTENSIVE COLLECTIONS OR REFRENCES. I AM LIMITED IN BOTH FIELDS IN COMPARISON BUT DO THE BEST I CAN. THE HAIR LOOKS HUMAN AND IS TOO BRITTLE WITH AGE TO HAVE BEEN WORKED RECENTLY I COMPARED IT TO SEVERAL MANDAU I HAVE WITH HUMAN HAIR THAT ARE AROUND 150 YEARS OR OLDER. THE DUST SEEN IS NOT ARTIFICIALLY ADDED MUD OR GRIME AS I OFTEN SEE IN ITEMS FROM CHINA AND NEW GUINEA. ATTACHED IS A LITTLE TABLE EXHIBIT OF TOOTHED WEAPONS I BROUGHT TO TIMONIUM IN 2007 Attached Images

18th October 2013, 01:39 AM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	OK YOU WIN, DISREGARD ALL I HAVE POSTED ON IT. PERHAPS ITS A MINNIEHUNI KNUCKLEDUSTER FROM HAWAII IF IT IS A RECENT FAKE THEY DID THE BEST JOB I HAVE EVER SEEN AND SOLD IT WAY TOO CHEAP FOR THE WORK THAT WENT INTO IT ONLY A FEW HOURS PAY AT MC DONALDS WOULD PAY FOR IT. FROM THE PICTURES I THOUGHT IT WAS RECENT WHEN I BOUGHT IT BUT IT INTERESTED ME AND THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKED GOOD THE PRICE WAS RIGHT AND NO OTHER BIDDERS SO I TOOK A CHANCE. THE ITEM IS EXTREAMLY SMALL, DELICATE AND FRAGILE. I JUST HOPE TO FIND OUT IF IT IS A KNOWN ARTEFACT AND WHAT IT IS AND ITS USE. IF IT IS A MODERN FANTASY ITEM MADE USING VERY SOPHISTICATED PRIMATIVE TOOLS, METHODS AND ADVANCED AGEING TECKNIQUES SOMEONE VERY SKILLED SURE WORKS CHEAP AND I WOULD LOVE TO HIRE THEM TO MAKE ME A FEW REPLICA ITEMS THAT ARE USUALLY FAR OUT OF MY PRICE RANGE. Last edited by VANDOO; 18th October 2013 at 05:59 AM.

15th October 2013, 08:20 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It is a nuckle duster. I have some real old books and if remember well in one of them in the part of the people who used weapons with sharktheeth there is a picture of such a weapon. If i have some time i wil scan the page if i can find it. That you're fingers are too big for the holes, well

15th October 2013, 08:51 PM	#3
KraVseR Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ukraine Posts: 128	And where you acquired it? What country is this?

15th October 2013, 10:09 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Without reading the comment from Henk was my first impression as well, a knuckle duster. Very intersting item! Regards, Detlef

16th October 2013, 06:42 AM	#5
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	Vandoo, I have lurked on the form for years, but now that I have retired from Active Duty, I can play a bit more! Polynesian are not my area of expertise (not sure if I have one), but have a great interest in the Polynesian cultures and have been able to see some great collections of weapons and artifacts. That said the wood (from the photo's) almost looks like Koa (Acacia Koa) or Kauila (Alphitonia Ponderosa) (both Koa and Kauila look similar) native to the Hawaiian Islands. There are several different shark toothed weapons used in the Hawaiian Martial art of Lua. The most often pictured is a leiomano/Palau Papa Niho Mano (paddle shaped/oval mirror shaped with teeth around the outside), however there are several other shark toothed weapons that I am unaware of the true name for but are referred to as knuckledusters. These were weapons and only used as such from my reading (again, not intensive). The Maori also utilized a shark toothed knife called a Maripi...every specimen of these I have observed is very heavily carved in the Maori style. The specimen you have recently acquired looks as if it slips over two fingers with the rest of the curved guard if you will, protects the other two fingers...just my tow cents for what it is worth...neat piece! Congrats! Respectfully, John

16th October 2013, 09:00 AM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi VANDOO Apologies for being negative, ...they did make knuckleduster type weapons in Hawaii, but my gut feeling is that this is a fairly recent hobbyist production, or something made for selling. Though it looks well made, using traditional material.

16th October 2013, 05:35 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	FROM THE PICTURES I THOUGHT THE SAME AND EXPECTED SOMETHING MORE RECENT WHEN I BOUGHT IT. BUT AFTER TAKING A CLOSE LOOK THRU THE MICROSCOPE IT LOOKS OLD. THE HAIR CORD IS OLD AND BRITTLE AND FRAYED THE FIRST TWO SHARK TEETH ARE WORN WHICH TAKES A LOT OF USE AS THEY ARE HARD. THE WOOD SHOWS WEAR AND AGE DISCOLORATION AND THERE ARE GROOVES IN SOME AREAS THAT LOOK LIKE THE MARKS LEFT WHEN USING RATS TEETH FOR CARVING TOOLS. THE TWO FINGER HOLES LOOK REMARKABLY ROUND BUT ARE NOT PERFECTLY ROUND THEY SHOW NO EVIDENCE OF MODERN TOOLS. THE HOLES IN THE SHARK TEETH APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH PRIMATIVE TOOLS AND NO TWO ARE ALIKE. IF IT IS A RECENTLY MADE REPLICA MADE FOR SALE THE ONE MAKING IT WAS AN EXPERT AND HE REALLY KNEW HIS STUFF AND PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO IT. THE ONLY THING I SEE THAT LOOKS MORE RECENT IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE SHELLAC OR SOMETHING ON THE END KNOTS ON THE HAIR CORDS LIKELY TO PUT THERE TO PRESERVE THEM. NEW OR OLD I LIKE IT AND HOPEFULLY WITH LUCK WE WILL SEE A GOOD PROVENANCED EXAMPLE TO BE FOUND SO WE CAN IDENTIFY THE FORM AND USE OF THE ITEM AND PERHAPS EVEN THE ORIGIN.

17th October 2013, 08:40 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've seen some lovely modern shark-tooth weapons made from koa wood in shops in Maui and Hilo. Gorgeous things, impeccably crafted by native Hawaiians, but very modern. I'm with those who think this is a modern production. The ancient Hawaiians didn't have the drills to make those beautiful round holes, and their knuckledusters were wrapped around the hand with sennit. It may indeed be associated with the (still-extant) martial art of Lua, but if so, it's a modern weapon, not an antique one. F

17th October 2013, 09:19 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Sorry, I am disagree with the ones who think that this item is rather recent. What I can see from the pictures, the wood have a lot of wear. And I have respect to the eyes of a long time collector of ethnograhic items. The bindings from hair I never suspect to see by a recent item. And btw, I have seen nearly perfect drilled holes in sometimes very hard materials made from natives with simple tools. Regards, Detlef

18th October 2013, 12:01 AM	#12
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	There are a lot of ways to make hair brittle (it's worth asking a woman about this, as things as simple as sun, dyeing, and blowdrying make hair very brittle), and I've got some tiger shark teeth I purchased years ago on eBay for a shark's tooth weapon I never got around to making. Sorry, I don't buy that this is old. The design simply isn't old. As others have noted, it's a half-way decent knuckleduster. However, if it's been artificially aged, I'll change my opinion about whether it was created as a Lua tool or art piece, and start thinking darker thoughts. F

18th October 2013, 05:43 AM	#14
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	A gentlemens' disagreement, perhaps? Actually, there is a good point here about human hair. We tend to uncritically use its presence as a guide to authenticity, but it wouldn't be at all hard to get hair to use as a binding, if someone either wanted to experiment with it (for authenticity's sake) or to make a fake. F