French mameluke? first batch of images

[celtan]

Hi, it's me again...!

I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist".

And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real.

I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same?

Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4.

Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books...

Best

M

[celtan]

2nd batch of images

Hi, it's me again...!
I have owned a rather interesting french sword for many years, but all the while, everyone I have asked about it, claims it "doesn't exist".
And yet, the blade seems to thinks otherwise, and refuses to dissappear as any civilized figment should. Consequently, I think its real.
I'm even posting some pictures of my "imagination's figment". If you can see her too, perhaps you can help me ID same?
Data: poincon on ricasso. Inscribed in spine" Manufacture Real. de Chatetllereault, January 18x6". Can't figure out whether x is 2 or 4.
Obviously, a scythe like mameluke blade of sorts. But id doesn't even appear on books...
Best
M

[fernando]

Hi Manolo,
within my ignorance:
The date looks like 1846.
The hilt looks like that of the 1822 cavalry sabre, isn't that so?
I am sure the best solution for these riddles with French swords is Jean Bick
jeanbck@hotmail.com
He is a nice guy; has just identified a sword for me, which was a bit tricky.
But let me tell you; tricky are also these shady overdimensioned pictures you post
Con mucho cariño.
Fernando

[celtan]

Howdy 'Nando,

Agree with you on both counts. Sorry about the giant pics. They are just a link to the image at PB. I'm not truly bombing the forum with large files...

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?

Apertas,
Manolo

BTW, you have a very interesting collection, from all the postings of yours I have seen . When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada?

: )

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Fernando, there are few authorities on European military swords, particularly French, with the expertise of Jean Binck. He has written many outstanding articles on them over many years, and I have always been most impressed by his willingness to offer help with the many queries he must get.

I also agree this hilt would be the M1822 French hilt, which saw service for the better part of the 19th century, and became the model for the famed U.S. cavalry M1840 ('the old wristbreaker').

What is the anomaly is this dramatically curved (fully parabolic) blade, and the colorful reference to the Mamluks, who of course did use curved sabres that influenced French, British and American military swords, however typically in the hilt, not particularly the blade.
It is worthy of note that the early years of the 19th century reflected considerable controversy, debate and innovation concerning weapons technology with sword blades. The British had established thier first official regulation sword patterns with the light cavalry M1796 sabre, derived from European hussar forms with stirrup hilt. In establishing the most suitable blade form, other blade forms with yelman were considered as seen on some tulwars and Turkish kilij, as well as the highly curved parabolic shamshir type blades, and Hungarian sabre blades.

I have seen British cavalry sabres with equally parabolic blades as this French example that date about 1800, and with pipeback blade. The well known Mamluk sabre of this period is known for the curved blade which required cut out at back of scabbard to allow the sword to be withdrawn.

In the United States, the Virginia Manufactory of Arms, from 1808-1820, produced its First and Second model cavalry sabres with extremely curved blades like this that were incredibly long. These were still on hand at the outbreak of the Civil War, and Confederate cavalry 'reduced' ! the blades to 35" length for manageability.

This French sword is clearly an anomaly, and would not appear in reference books regularly available as it may have been either a prototype or a custom order by an officer. If the date is correct as 1846, the Manufacture de Chatellerault was effectively commercial enterprise, and may well have entertained such orders.

In any case, this is a most unusual example of a French cavalry sabre, M1822, which clearly does exist, and reflects the profound influence of Oriental weaponry in the French military. They did adopt colorful units of Mamluk and Zouave type, and perhaps this sabre might have been to an officer of one of them.

Best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando and Jim,


I already tried Jean Binck, last time I asked him about it he didn't know. But he liked my suggestion that the former owner had removed the blade's tip, perhaps after stabbing his own buttocks in the upward swing once too many.

The russians were keen on using this shape of blade also, as well as the persian shamshirs.


Manolo

Check this pics from a british 18th C blade...

Wow! Thats a nice one too Manolo! This is a 'spadroon' type hilt (a very confusing term usually applied to straight blade sabres for infantry officers about 1780 with these neoclassic type hilts) which is mounted with a M1796 light cavalry 'hatchet point' sabre blade (but much more parabolic than standard). I have often wondered if there was some unofficial move for British officers putting these sabre blades on the established hilts which usually had straight blades.
I once had one of these c.1780 hilts which should have had the usual straight cavalry blade of 1780's (heavy cavalry) and had a curved sabre blade on it.

I have seen Scottish basket hilts mounted with M1788 light cavalry blades as well, so it would seem that officers may well have had thier armourers mount these curved blades at thier whim, which was pretty standard in those rather flamboyant times.

You're right, Russian officers too would often yield to fashion oriented exuberance in weapons, and the Persian shamshir was a weapon admired by anyone who had exposure to them.

The tip on your sabre seems 'rebated' or rounded, which is a standard alteration intended to widen the end of the blade for slashing cuts. This is often seen on Omani kattara and Tuareg takouba which characteristically have these points.


It seems to me both you and 'Nando have got amazing collections, and we're lucky to have you guys sharing things here. Thank you so much!!


All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

[fernando]

Hi 'Manolete'

Originally Posted by celtan

Howdy 'Nando,)

Now your'e getting close . One or two people call me Nando, a short name (also) practised over here. When i was young and my mother and sisters wanted to aliciate me to execute some task of their interest, they would even call me Nandinho

Originally Posted by celtan

Did you see my post on the french? court sword?)

Naturaly i did. I have no idea of what it is; but i have a firm idea that the scene on the guard is identifiable ... just needing somebody familiar with it.

Originally Posted by celtan

When did you start collecting? Were you in your terrible twos when you grab your first espada? : )

I was already in my fourties when i decided to keep my first sword and start collecting. I don't have that many things ... just stretch them to look like i have a serious collection .

BTW, if you keep thinking this piece is not existable in your collection, you just have to call me for business

Fernando

[celtan]

Nando, Nandiño, Nandín, Nandito, Nandy, Fernan, all spanish-galician variations of Fernando.

Manuel: Manolo, Manolete, Nolo, Manu.

Drat, There are so many more for yours than for mine.

Then Jaime: Jim. : ) .

OTOH, James has so many more variations across cultures: Jacob, George, Jacques, Yago, Iago, Giacomo...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Thank you for your time and kind words, Jim. This spadroon is not mine, I found the images last wednesday while perusing through a well known auction site looking for similar blades.

You comment on the round tip is interesting. Was this practice normal or frequent among european armies using this type of blade?

Best

M

Not at all Manolo! It was nice of you to post these, as they show an interesting aspect of swords in the period at the end of the 18th and early years of the 19th centuries. As far as the rounded tip on the extremely parabolic sabre blade, actually that was not common for sabres, especially French.
The Napoleonic French light cavalry sabres had points, and what was distinct about French cavalry is that they were ordered to 'give point' in many instances. That is in attacking the sabre was held in high tierce and thrusting downward movement, if my understanding of the manuever is correct. It is well established that these thrusting wounds were nearly always fatal, and the argument for many years was thrust was superior to the cut for that reason.
The ultimate goal was a sword blade which accomplished both in equal degree. The French heavy cavalry chausseurs of course had straight swords for thrusting, but not as effective in cuts as the sabre.

The British 'spadroon' type hilt you have shown with the unusually curved M1796 light cavalry type blade, has the distinct 'hatchet point' of these 1796 patterns. The M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt had similar hatchet type point,which indicates a blade tip which radiuses around with wide cutting edge. It is interesting that the Royal Scots Greys as they left England for Belgium just before Waterloo, were ordered to grind down thier blades to a spear point, illustrating once again the concerns for cut vs. thrust.

The hatchet point blades on the British M1796 light cavalry sabres were altogether too effective at cutting, and created such gore and mayhem that they were declared 'barbaric' weapons by Napoleon himself. These blades became long lived in the theater in India when they became favored by native cavalry units and tribal warriors, for thier profound cutting abilities. While the regulation British swords 'advanced' to pointed tips in 1829, these hatchet point types were produced for Indian regiments until the early 20th century.

I think much of the excitement in regulation swords is focused around the M1796 period and the early 19th century. I recall an article written by a friend in Denmark on the M1796 light cavalry sabres, which revealed as many as half dozen or more variations. Some were yeomanry, while many were interpretations by various vendors, and in this time the colonels supplied thier units, so between these factors, there was a spectrum of variations not seen in any other regulation pattern in this degree.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jean B.

Hello there,

Originaly this sword was issued as a normal French Trooper Mle 1822 light cavalry sword with its normal slight curvature. The marking "Manufacture Royale de Chatellerault" + date was authorised only on government owned swords. The sword was also stamped by the inspector and controllers. The two set of rack numbers on the hilt show that it was issued two times to regiments for the service.

It is likely that this is a standard Mle 1822 trooper sword which was once modified (curved) by an individual. It could have been done twenty years ago as well.

It is a very funny sword, but I am afraid that it has no historical value.

All the best,
Jean

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Jean,
While this sabre has an unusually parabolic blade, I am wondering if this might have been for an officer of one of the more exotic units as mentioned. It does appear that the sword has experienced a degree of renewal judging by the hilt condition, but the blade itself seems an authentic Chatellerault piece. Were there such curved blades issued in any instances with the French army which might have been requested specifically by an officer in custom order as you have noted, as seems to have occurred on occasion with British officers?

Another detail that arouses curiosity is the rounded tip on the blade. On another thread in discussing this feature on a 'walloon' sword also with rounded tip, I had noted this often appeared on German made blades of 17th and into 18th century. It is my impression these were intended for the slashing cut, though I am unclear on how commonly this particular type point was used and the exact period. Most of the examples I have seen were in the period noted.

Once again, its great having you here!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Hello Jim,

I don't think this could be a special officer sword.
Officer's swords are private property and should not bear rack number on the hilt like this one
Numbers on the hilt are stamped in the regiments when the sword is issued to troopers for the service. The cross out number and the second number show that it was first isued in a regiment, came back in the artillery stores, and was reissued again. This happens only for regulation trooper swords and clearly this curvature is not regulation, I never saw any of them in documents. The only explanation is that the sword was curved after its normal regulation life.
Why and when it was done will remain a mystery, I am afraid.
If Manuel can give a close up of the poinçons on the hilt, or a description, I can check if the hilt date match the blade.

Furthermore, this parabolic blade doesn't fit the fashion of the period. During this period there was an inclination for straight swords. Many non regulation swords have a straight blade, medaillon style hilt (like the Zouave pattern) or multiple branches steel hilt wich finally gave birth to the regulation infantry pattern 1882.

When some romantic officers still wanted an highly curved blade sword, they sticked with the classic "sabre à l'orientale" with a wide flat decorated blade and only high rank officers could take the liberty to wear this kind of extravagant "sabre à l'orientale".
Note also that such highly curved blade needs a special scabbard with a slid on the side to allow sheathing.

Thank you for your warm welcome, but I am afraid I do not visit forums often anymore. However, feel free to drop me an email if you feel I can help.

All the best,
Jean

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Jean, and your explanation on the issue numbers on the hilt are very helpful. This clarifies the idea procedural protocol that would track the issue history of the sword itself.

All the best,
Jim


I wanted to add some notes to this thread pertaining to sabres of the early 19th century that I hope might add some related perspective.

The early part of the 19th century seems extremely interesting as far as the variations of sword forms. The Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt produced some most interesting influences in military weapons in British swords, much as in degree in French swords. The Mamluk warriors deeply curved sabres must have brought interest in the blades, as the hilts distinctly influenced both British and French officers sabre hilts after the campaigns.

In British swords, the M1803 flank company officers swords seem to have had unusually parabolic blades, though I have never understood exactly why that blade feature was so favored by them. With the M1803, the usual flowing lionhead mane on the hilt with one example I had, carried Egyptian theme with a sphinx type mane on the lionhead. I have seen certain British light cavalry sabres of the earlier M1796 form, in seemingly prototype sense, with deeply parabolic blades and even more unusual with rod type pipeback.

In a recent personal communication there is an example of a British officers mameluke sabre, as shown in Robson "Swords of the British Army" as the pattern 1831, which is mounted with extremely parabolic shamshir blade and mounted in Ottoman type scabbard with slit back for access of this dramatic blade. This in my opinion was likely custom mounted for a British officer in probably southern Arabia, Gulf of Aden, then British occupied and where many military outfitters furbished such custom weapons.

While it appears these fashion effects might not apply with this French sabre, I wanted to illustrate some of the contemporary instances with British officers swords of the period.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts.

OTOH, this sabre's spine inscriptiosn are very clear, and the width/spacing of the brief fuller near the spine is uniform and consistent across its length. So, whoever did the curving truly did an outstanding job.

Is this a difficult procedure? Is it cheap? Can anyone do it? Is there an economical benefit for doing it, specially after paying a knowledgeable armourer for his work?

Why would anyone do it?

Could this be an experimental 1846 blade, mounted in a surplus 1822 hilt?

Questions, questions...Sounds like another Sherlock Holms mistery, like the old Danish Hussars Sabre.

Fun!

I'll take a macro pic of the poincon, and submit same soon.

Best regards, and do missbehave !

M

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

Obviously, Jean and Jim know much, much, so much more than I do about swords, that I can only accept their opinions as facts.


M

Hi Manolo,

I would like to give you one advise I am 100% sure it is a good one: for the sake of research, do NEVER, EVER accept an opinion as a fact if you feel you can discover something more. Research is indeed the fun part of collecting. Believe me, I would be more than happy if you come back to me in a few months saying: Hey Jean, I found evidences you were wrong, look at this...Sure, I would be happy to learn something new. I gave my personal opinion supported by observations but it is certainly not gospel.

All the best and....happy research!
Jean

Peu importe la destination si le voyage est plaisant.

[celtan]

"Peu importe la destination si le voyage est plaisant." Jean




Wouldn't that eminently apply to Life and Death?



Best

M

[celtan]

Another scythe...

Russian?

[fernando]

Amazing ... and fascinating.
The thing is so curved that the suspension rings are on the contrary side of the scabbard.
... no wonder
Fernando

[celtan]

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.

The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.

M

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.
The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.
M

Mine had 34 1/2" and weighed 0,774 kg. I didn't keep a record of the width. As far as i can remember, the cross section looked similar to this one. Not that i assimilate that a blade can be recurved in such manner without leaving deformation marks. I go more for the experiment prototype. But let me not say is a good specimen, as i hope to be its next owner when you get fed up of it; i fancy abnormal stuff ... like me
'Nando'

[fernando]

... But if you are measuring yours it in a straight line, then its miles longer than a 1822 ... correct ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

Another scythe...

Russian?

Bizarre
If it had the edge by the inside, it would be useful for cutting grass .
Where did you get this picture ... is it confidential ?
Fernando

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by celtan

BTW, what's the average length for the French M1822 saber blade?
This one has a 34 3/4" long blade, width 1.25" at the ricasso, and .75" near the rounded tip.

The blade was originally even longer, back before the tip was rounded.

M

Originaly, the regulation length for a French Mle 1822 light cavalry sword is 92.5 cm which is about 36.4 inches.

After 1884, all remaining swords issued to troops were supposed to be shortened to 87.5 cm hence Fernando's measure.

Best,
Jean

[celtan]

Hi Fernando,

No, it's not confidential at all, I plumb forgot.

Best

M

Originally Posted by fernando

Bizarre
If it had the edge by the inside, it would be useful for cutting grass .
Where did you get this picture ... is it confidential ?
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Jean,

Since mine is 88.26 cm _after_ having the tip rounded, it means that originally it was the longer 92.25 version, and the blade was never adjusted to the shorter post-1884 regs. It also suggests that the scythe shape was most probably done while the original longer blades prevailed, before 1884'.

Had it been a modified post-1884 blade, after rounding the tip, it would have been about 82 cm long. (minus ~4 cms.).

Thank you for your contributions, I just read your other comments on the AN XI sabre de cavalerie legere. They always make for interesting reading!

Best regards

Manuel


[QUOTE=Jean B.]Originaly, the regulation length for a French Mle 1822 light cavalry sword is 92.5 cm which is about 36.4 inches.

After 1884, all remaining swords issued to troops were supposed to be shortened to 87.5 cm hence Fernando's measure.

Best,
Jean

[Gonzalo G]

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

Another scythe...

Russian?

Unbelievable!!! I have seen parabolic blades before.....but NEVER one this dramatic!
Most definitely Russian, I believe these as well as many of thier regulation patterns were based on captured French Napoleonic weapons (I dont have my copy of Mollo handy, "Russian Military Swords" Eugene Mollo).
I believe this hilt was based on the French model ANXI.....but have no idea what was behind this blade.
The carrying rings are on the opposed side as was characteristic of thier military swords, as well as shashkas.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jean B.]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

With all due respect, in my modest forging knowledge, curving in such way a blade already fullered, presents a great deal of difficulty. The problem is not no make the curve, but the metal in the outside of the curve strechtes and the inside make wrinkles, as the metal is shrinked, even in hot. So, the form of the edge, the fuller and the back must be reshapen, and the blade tempered again, grinded and polished. I wonder if this can be made on a blade already finished, and without extra material to work and expend. I would love to learn how can this be made, as my knowledge on this matter is not sufficient.
Regards

Gonzalo

Yes, I agree it is amazing, but the marking and military inspector's mark give the assurance that the sword, once in its lifetime, matches the military standard and patterns of this government controlled factory and is the property of the government (the French ministry of war paid for it).

For me it is similar as if I find a military M16 rifle, with all the proof markings and a serial number corresponding to a batch sold to the US government years ago. And marking show also it was issue, and reissued, to the service. But...it has a knot made with the barrel.

Now, what hypothesis will I choose?
1) The US army ordered to the factory a batch of M16 with a knot in the barrel and issued it to troops. However there are no traces of such order or trials in archives and no other examples of a similar rifle in museums or military patterns room.

2) An armourer took a standard M16 rifle from military stock and managed to make a knot with the barrel.

I think I can only choose number 2 even if I 'll keep asking myself how this bloody armourer managed to make the knot in the barrel and...without altering the rifling!

I know the example is extravagant but it is only to show my reasoning process.

Cheers,
Jean