Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[urbanspaceman]

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

[kronckew]

i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem.
I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

[kronckew]

nickel plating has been around a long time: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/m...ating-history/

found online:

Commercial chrome plating was developed by Fink & Eldridge at Columbia University in 1924, and was based on a 1920 paper by Dr. George J. Sargent. In very simple terms, Sargent discovered that in order to electroplate chromium you need almost exactly 1 part of sulfuric acid to 100 parts of chromic acid. More sulfuric acid or less and it just won't plate. Because of this discovery, the most conventional chromium plating process is still called "the Sargent bath".

also thermal coating of metals with mercury amalgams has been used for millennia. usually by slaves as it tended to kill the artisans using it.

thermal heat treating is hardening the steel by heating it to the temperature where it loses it's nagnetic attraction, then quenching it.

too fast a quench can result in cracking - the dreaded 'ping' or warping. water is usually a no-no, and oil is used. this if done right produces a hard steel, but it's brittle. it must be tempered by reheating it to a much lower temp. (it depends on the type of and composition of the steel) than the hardening required to allow the stresses to work themselves out, allowing it to air cool. (steel can also be 'normalised' or 'annealed' back into a workable softer state by heating it to the non-magnetic temp then cooling it slowly, frequently packing it in insulation and waiting a few days to let it cool.) heating it too high can burn the steel, effectively removing the carbon, and turning it into iron instead of steel.

the hardening rather than the tempering usually produces the unwanted warps. i've heard a primitive blacksmith say if you use a horizontal quenching tank aligned north to south rather than a vertical one it won't warp. not sure how true that is.

the japanese took advantage of this by making their blades almost straight, then differentially hardening them which hardened the edge with a quick cooling, while the spine took longer, and actually self-tempered it all in the same step. it also produced a more noticeable but desired curve. mastering that along with the folding processes and inserting higher carbon steel edges into lower carbon spines was not an easy skill to learn.

p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades.

[urbanspaceman]

Ah so! Nickel plating eh? Well that would explain the shine. Mind you, I have bought hand-made knives in the USA that are carbon steel and have a superb shine, so maybe it's just the steel well polished. Thank you for all that info, I'm learning so much writing this book.

[Hotspur]

p.s. - i've yet to hear them refer to tempering on 'forged in fire' on the history tv channel. probably why they snap so many blades.

In discussing this with one of the contestants, it has been related to me that the show omits the tempering phase but I have been assured that the makers do indeed temper the blades. Whether deemed a waste of air time or trade secret, that's why.

Of course, the History channel is for entertainment and not any primary source I am aware of. If someone has a question for a smith, ask the smith.

Cheers

GC

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

Rolling mills come in during the industrial revolution. Why it took steam to develop it before water wheels, I am not sure but it also goes hand in hand with increases of the production of all metals. Ordinary tableware also becoming more regular items.

Cheers

GC

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Ah so! Nickel plating eh? Well that would explain the shine. Mind you, I have bought hand-made knives in the USA that are carbon steel and have a superb shine, so maybe it's just the steel well polished. Thank you for all that info, I'm learning so much writing this book.

some people are strongly allergic to nickel, in objects that will be handled, like coins or sword/knife blades, or grips, even zippers, buckles, pins, needles, stainless steel may contain some nickel. the 5 cent US nickel, so called because it is 25% nickel, so is to be avoided if you are allergic.

there is a certain khukri making firm in nepal that produces an amazing mirror polish on their 5150 steel knives. they use a home made polishing disk made from old rags sewn together and a 'magic stone' rouge powder dressing stuck on the wheel with bees wax. the making of the powder and the stone they make it from is a trade secret. (most of the knives they make for the local villagers are left rough or black). the pictures of their 'factory' is scary. OSHA would have a field day. of course period sword factories in the west were not very safe either. before electricity the nepali kamis used a similar wheel turned by hand, with a line wraped around the spindle and pulled alternately one way or the other to get the speed up. no water power either.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill.

Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc

This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine...metal-history/

Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An interesting vignette exists although on knife making at Solingen at http://www.worldknives.com/info/knif...knives-68.html

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

We are dealing with hollow ground swords which by cross section are triangular. For a general description please see Matt Easton on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMd3G5x6CIc

Whilst this is not exactly Colichemarde it gives a good basis for comparison and on the development of the style.

[Hotspur]

I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning.

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur, Great post thanks ~ As a university teacher I can assure you of the value of a broad cross section of referencing as you will deduce by looking at any of my threads... It is important to include Forum Library references as well as Web references and of course book quotes, photographs, professional papers, maps and artwork. Tap dancing on the table is allowed if it gets the students attention!!

I have many items of Arabian antiquity including weapons placed by friends at Durham University UK (Antiquities Department) and you should see their student tear into their course work ...They are like scientific detectives using every chemical and testing gizmo invented and then they get down to the books ...They probe, question, analyze and consider every aspect of an artifact and their report ...a sort of structured mega thread are stunningly well done. The most recent test is currently running and the student has to produce a video presentation on an ancient Afgan Ewer !!

Some of the webs historical battles are fantastic, well thought out and accurate productions ~ and although Matt comes in for a fair bit of leg pulling his lectures are often quite well done for an amateur and anyway no one is saying you have to watch it !

The video is a picture worth a thousand words on steroids!

Modern technology in the classroom is world apart from chalk boards (though these too have their place) and the modern lecturer has a broad base of high tech to support lessons.

Wiki is an incredible resource which is captivating material faster than ever and for example within a few years every book on this earth will be on tap on the web and free!...Ignoring that would be slightly odd.

Having said that I respect those who stick by more conventional structures but it should be noted that we are in fact the same sort of data base gathering machine as Wiki... That is how our excellent Library gathers details. We are an information gathering system in precisely the same way as Wiki.

Of course being a new thing Wiki gets blasted from all sides as did the motor car and aeroplane ! It seems all right to be somewhat scornful of the Web as fair game but who looks to our own system for improved ideas...?

Apple has a group of scientists in their new inventions division and are experimenting with new tech all the time...When did Forum bring on a new concept or structure like automatic Library referencing on every new thread? Its only an tiny algorithm...

Finally I refer to my mobile device memo on which I wrote the other day.."The quickened pace of technology requires a brighter more fluid response from a tech savvy audience using innovative, nimble, bright and clever research tools at their instant finger tips".

[Hotspur]

I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads.

I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources.

Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!! , as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information.
It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores.

I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest.

Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines.

He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil.
It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production.

In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters".

-"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers).

It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information.

Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers.

Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone.

Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI).
However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand.
A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set.

Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords?

Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former.

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

[urbanspaceman]

About 1880, when over here, Fritz Weyersberg saw, then purchased the patent for a blade roll forge invented in England. Apparently it is still in use at WKC; although Andre Wilms didn't want to talk about it when I asked earlier this year. Coals to Newcastle?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

Yes and No to all of that~ The story has lies and myth intermixed with half truths and all sorts of counter claims... The sword makers would not want to be implicated in the Jacobite supply of arms as that was the direct route to the executioner. Surely they would not want their swords being found on Jacobite fighters with the Shotley blade mark... The South Sea Co. was about as scurrilous as it could get and involved up to its neck in slavery. There was smuggling going on all over the map..Were the swords made in Solingen stamped with the Passau Wolf before being smuggled and/or done in Shotley Bridge? Was Samuel Harvey and his son Samuel Harvey Jnr. in Birmingham, the only location using the Bushy Tail Fox ? Who was William Harvey?
What machine was used if any to Roll the blades? Rolling Mill? Where is it now? Was there a Colichemarde machine which ground the sword blades ? Was the machine not simply a Rolling Mill ? etc etc. Was grinding only done manually?
These are important questions and are at the heart of the sword making conundrum in England ...

[urbanspaceman]

I'm still nose to the grindstone Ibrahiim.

[urbanspaceman]

I’ve been convinced for some time that the bushy-tailed running fox was first used by the Oleys.
That vendor and auctioneer last year were certain of it.
Oley based the Guild of the Running Fox headquarters in the second Cutler’s Hall he built in 1787.
And I’ve just discovered that a Richard Oley went to work in Birmingham, I think around 1740 but I need to confirm that.
I’m meeting with the keeper of the archives of Shotley Bridge next week: I took a woman along to last week’s meeting and she charmed the pants off him (well, not literally). He’s agreed to allow me access to all the archives that the village has concerning the sword-makers. That’s something John Bygate couldn’t manage.
Surely I can confirm, one way or the other, that Oley used the bushy-tailed running fox first.
Incidentally, it is stated that the SB smiths also used a blade stamp of the crossed swords or the image of a bridge. I suspect we may well find those marks on the tangs of appropriate swords if we could reveal them.
I’m very keen to view this cache of swords in Bowes Museum, but I suspect they will make me jump through hoops and wait till Christmas before they allow me access. I’ve learned that most museums behave that way.
However, as I said earlier this week, you guys are putting everything under the microscope and that is exactly what I need.

[Hotspur]

I am not sure where to start in reply to what I read as quite a diverse bit of rambling but let me post a couple of related thoughts without parsing this past page.

In my own reading and inquiry regarding one Prosser regarding pipe back (quill point) blades, my question was whether rolling mills were being used to form these sword blades. A reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions rolling mills were used primarily for bayonets, well into the 19th century. However, there is a British patent for rolling pipe just about the same timeline and by a Prosser (weird huh?). In yet another discussion with Wilkinson-Latham, he had provided quite a bit of information on Wilkinson blades and although (later 19th century) rolling mills were employed for the reduction of stock thickness, there were many processes preceding and following that passage of steel. These discussions can be found at his profile at Sword Forum International. He also breaks down the timelines of Weyersburg, WKC and the eventual sale of tooling from Wilkinson to WKC.

Regarding hollow blade swords and the high medieval timeline, a fair number of extant examples remain in museums and collections in Europe and the UK. Examined and discussed by the likes of smith Peter Johansson, I am a bit surprised that someone searching the topic is/was unaware. Peter's home page
http://www.peterjohnsson.com/ As youtube takes the fancy of many, there re also video presentations from him found there. One can also follow discussions at discussion boards such those found on www.myarmoury.com.

On a final note, my own thoughts on the trefoil, three edge blades and whether they are the product of rolling mills; I suppose it is possible but when one considers the remaining grinding required after a rough form, wheels must still have been employed. My hunch on the matter is that three wheels were set in such a manner as to accept the blank and the wheels with tension on pivots allow the length to be ground and polished.

Addendum
Noted in my first post(s) in reply to this thread is the British History Online site with copious reference materials and where I had first seen some notes on the Hollow Sword Company. In discussion on the myArmoury forums, Howard Waddell (Albion Swords) mentions in his own research much of what has already been mentioned here in this thread but the bottom line was hollow ground swords being produced with water powered grinding wheels. We often look to the largest possible dimension of tools, when we ought not forget how small tooling was becoming. Food for thought? To me, a menu ranging from horology to engines and general tool making.

Sciences thought to be lost often appear to have never disappeared.

Cheers

Glen Cleeton

[urbanspaceman]

Ref. Previous post from Hotspur:
thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided.
I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards.
With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you.
Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s.
As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted?
Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s.
Thanks again Glen.

[Hotspur]

A good start for anything regarding the Japanese swords, Rich Stein's pages are excellent.
https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/

The Viking Sword site had been a very early visit I made, along with Stein's pages and other sword related resources.

Another portal is Fordham's
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/sbook.asp

A large collection of links here, another very early bookmark in my lists
http://www.sirclisto.com/

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]

PLEASE See post 13 It refers to the competition and it was when after winning the crown they changed the name of the Sword Inn to the Crown and Crossed Swords. I recall a spurious note about the sword maker turning up...in Birmingham..it wasnt our man...l think Jim refers to this ..but l cant find it...The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??

[urbanspaceman]

[QUOTE=The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??[/QUOTE]

I agree Ibrahiim, writers have given much pertinence to this image on the ceiling, but I also feel it is not representative of the fox or the wolf. It is more likely a builder's mark.

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

The business of the competition: I wondered if this was a known historical event that endured into more recent times, rather than the actual occasion when Oley won the crown.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Salaams Keith~ Therein lies a tale ~ The Shotley wording uses Flying Fox in describing the Solingen animal... It wasn't the bushy tail version... it was the stick-like wolf. The Wolf of Passau. Malleted and chiseled into the blade.

The Bushey tail flying Fox was Samuel Harveys. Birmingham. Initials SH in the body of the fox but not always.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually, as always, a great deal of 'lore' becomes entwined in material compiled on many topics, and one of these greatly effected is the origins and history of the 'running wolf'.
It seems that the generally held idea of Archduke Albert granting the 'wolf' symbol to sword guilds in Passau in 1349 was suggested in Demmin (1877)but it is unclear where he found that data. When Rudolf Cronau wrote his "Geschicte der Solinger Klingenindustrie" (1885) he indicated he had never found proof of such award or association to a guild in this manner.

Passau did however use the rampant wolf as a town arms from c.1460, with its beginnings as such around 1402. It does seem that it was a center for the assembly of mercenary armies, and at some time the incising of a rudimentary rendering of the wolf into blades began being used. This was a kind of imbuement of power and protection for the warriors to use these weapons.
In these times and later, Solingen was producing blades, but as noted, these were sent to nearby Cologne to be mounted and sold as complete swords commonly known as 'Cologne Swords'.

It seems at some point the use of the 'running wolf' of Passau entered the repertoire of Solingen's blade makers. In regard to this, Wagner (Prague, 1967) notes that the 'Passau wolf' mark was used by Wundes (probably Johann Wundes the elder, 1560-1610) for his blade consignments for Passau merchants supplying the mercenary forces of Archduke Leopold V.

It seems the only makers I have found listed to Passau, are the Stantlers, running from early 15th c. through 16th, but they are equally noted to Munich. Among the various marks they used, many spurious of makers of Toledo etc. are noted, but not the running wolf.

The running wolf does however seem to be paired with various magical numbers or sometimes other 'general' marks such as cross and orb.
I am beginning to wonder just how many blades or weapons were indeed produced at Passau, or whether they were simply imported from Solingen or other centers and marked with the magical imbuement of the wolf, and or others.

Such magical and talismanic imbuements were among other forms of amulets also known as 'Passau art' suggesting association with Passau provided protection in battle. Therefore I am thinking that the term 'running wolf of Passau' is simply a descriptive term for the superstitions and notions applied to these crudely incised markings. The fact that they are so dissimilar and often nearly indiscernible is due to the fact they were actually applied in an almost token manner. It was the presence of the mark itself, not its accuracy or character, that mattered.

Later, as the magical tone subsided, it became regarded as a kind of quality mark, whose connotation was carried forward in that manner, in Solingen; later Hounslow.
The British counterpart of the wolf, the fox, may well owe its derivation to the Shakespeare references using the fox term with presumed suggestion of the so called "Passau wolf'. In Birmingham, makers Harvey and Dawes seeking to capitalize on the quality connotation used this in mid 18th c.

We know that the fox with SH was of course probably to Samuel Harvey, but while Dawes was believed to have used the fox as well, we do not know of his name or initials with the fox. Perhaps then those without initials are his.
We know also that Harvey used his name or initials without the fox, and it appears to have ceased being used .

With Shotley Bridge, in the 17th c. according to Aylward (1945, p.33), "...it appears they were importing forgings from Solingen, which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".
It seems that the running wolf may have still been used by these descendants from Hounslow and their Solingen ancestors as a mark of that quality and heritage, contrary to the notion that they were spurning the codes, oaths or expatriation from it.