Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Note to Forum. Recent conversion of Ethiopian (German blade) sword ready to be fitted with an Omani long SAYF hilt. WELDED TANG; ELONGATED, AND POMMEL ADDED. Muscat (Mutrah) 14 feb 2012.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to forum on restoring scabbards for Omani Battle Swords Sayf. Pictured here the distinctive hilt showing the join and 3 holes ~ the top hole as a collet with a loop to take the wrist strap. Often the hole is empty and it is uncertain if this was the case or that the collet pin detail was used...The latter giving a more sturdy hilt. On this thread are hilts with no collet pin and one with a rivvet instead suggesting no wrist strap or as a latter modification. Usually the pointed pommel is of 8 sections reflecting the 8 sided hilt however this one has 9.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Picture shows new scabbard making in process.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

"The Straight is a Sayf the Curved is a Kattara".


Salaams all, As a bump to the thread and to include a fairly startling fact, I add the following information on this particular blade that I would term not expensive but "interesting" since it carries a European number 563. The sword has lost about 5 inches of tip and is roughly flexible through perhaps 50 degrees ... Whilst it is a dancing sword it attains lower quality.
If this was part of a sword run or batch where are the other 562 examples and were there any more? 1000 or 5000 others? It could be a one off or locally made in ras al khaimah India or elsewhere however we will probably never know... As I say it is "interesting".

I throw in an old Map of Arabia by Jac Meurs.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all, Note for Library SEARCH

Omani straight SAYF Dancing swords in Buraimi Souk today. The Yemeni shop owner pulls swords in the northern region from Mussandam and also other links from the Yemen/Saudia. I have posted a couple of pictures on Souks of Oman of some daggers etc

This Sayf is laminated and fully flexible through 90 degree bend. The decoration is flat wire stitching and the leather work is Northern ( Shimaliyya) The floral scrolls same however could reflect interior Omani work (Daakiliyyah). The blade is a little short by an inch or two ...but typical to type. Rigged to hang on a low baldric though in practise carried at the shoulder.

An exact date on the introduction of this dancing item buzzed in the air and sometimes thrown and caught in the historical enactment in the Funoon.. Although it is razor sharp and accompanied by a battle shield(terrs)in aspects of the traditional Razha dance pageant is not technically a fighting weapon moreover it is a celebratory accessory at weddings national day celebrations and the two Eid celebrations annually. It is engrained in Omans traditions.

It is assumed that the weapon arrived in the 18th C and clearly there is a link in the scabbard and hilt design style with its cousin the curved Kattara which appears to be a hybrid and appearing at about the same time. Pinpointing the arrival dates is an ongoing research project.

The origin of species of the Straight SAYF is also under scrutiny as there are links in style and shape to Red Sea variants apparently related to Yemeni/ Saudia weapons with historical notes supporting Ottoman, Mamluke, Abbasid and Greek roots. The peculiar fact is that a non weapon celebration sword has been designed from a fighting weapon and given a rehilting re scabbarding of Omani styling... though previous hilts of this precise nature are unknown(though there are some parallels with a Saudia / Yemen cousin noted earlier) the scabbard style is the same as the straight Old Battle Sword also called a Sayf whos origin of species points to 751 AD.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Late 20thC Omani Sayf dancing swords.

This style is typical of Ras Al Khaymah and carries the usual blade mark on both blades in identical form.

These swords are different lengths and on this post I shall also later (10 minutes)show the half sword in addition. As a dancing sword it is not obligatory to hold a full length sayf and often one sees the other variant two thirds the length(20 inch) of the long blades(30 inch)... still the same basic shape with flexi blade, round tip, razor sharp and on a long hilt however looking to my eye as a bit rediculous almost ! It rather underscores the pageant only use for this "weapon" or rather "pageantry accoutrement".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sallaams all ~

Confusion in the Timeline for The Straight Sayf Omani Dancing Sword and The Curved Omani Kattara.

A while ago, world opinion seemed to indicate a European source for the straight Omani dancing sword The Sayf which appeared to be the weapon taking over from the Old Omani Battle Sword..Also called the Sayf(actually Sayf Yamaani) in apparently circa the 18th C.

Whilst the date may be approximately correct (by coincidence) the assumption is, in fact, wrong. Forum has proved that this is not a European weapon or trade blade made by European sword makers since it is actually not a weapon at all… but a pageantry accessory that looks like a sword but isn’t. A quick breakdown as to why this is not a weapon viz;

1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)
2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play.
3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them.
4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole.
5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else.

In support of this point~ In the flow of sword styles through Africa and Arabia there are no examples of this sword drifting via tectonic sword movement or development or trade into Oman in the same way that e.g. hawkshead "Nimcha" or Solingen blades have done. In the opposite direction this sword has not appeared in other countries (except the UAE which was part of the Oman not so long ago and certainly before about 1900 though individual Fiefdom rule was present etc. etc. ) It is Oman specific.

In none of the examples save a few squiggled fake Passau Woolf marks is there any evidence of a European blade mark. The crown mark is a fake RAK invention. Most marks have stars moon or the God is Great insignia(All Islamic/ Arab/ Omani Marks) or no mark at all.

Several centres are proven as manufacturing bases locally in Oman including Ras Al Khaimah, Muscat, Nizwa, Senau, Salalah and via an itinerant wandering Indo-gypsy group the "Zutoot" until now un-catalogued but now seen in detail in this thread and who plied their trade throughout Oman though since 1970 are integrated and their wandering trade has all but ceased.

The myth therefore of the Omani dancing sword… is therefore proven and with it collapses the European sword provision. It is a local item not a trade blade. In addition the time line reason d'être is also demolished since that also hung by the same thread to a European base… the accidental attribution of 18th C may be correct but as yet no proof is on the table. If I was to make a guess I would say perhaps this pageantry accessory arrived with the Al Bu Saaiid Dynasty. (I shall deal with the possible origin of design species soon and paying attention to its apparent Red Sea Cousin which has til now been rather puzzling and since its blade is not Omani)

The curved Kattara as a fighting sword comes under scrutiny in parallel since it too cannot be a fighting sword since the hilt is "quillonless". What is suggested is that this has become Iconized in the favourite way that Omani VIPs preferred the weapon (as a badge of office). Naturally being struck with it would be deadly enough, however, this is not a battlesword; not a weapon as such but a signature of wealth, rank and officialdom. It can also be viewed as a legal badge of law and could in the advent of criminal justice being meted out be an instrument for execution… etc

This official wearing is illustrated by the number of Sultans sporting these "fashion accessories" in late 19th C. photos and drawings. The Iconization of all Omani swords i.e. in design terms; the Zanzibari nimcha, the Shamshir, the Kattara, and the Old Omani Sayf Battle Sword (but not apparently the dancing variety) is evidenced. In the Iconic role the usual accompaniment of the Terrs shield is dispensed with.

In conclusion neither the dancing sword nor the kattara are fighting weapons of war and it should be added that the highly decorative Zanzibari Nimcha and the Shamshir variety (all termed Kattara in Oman) are court swords .. Icons not battle swords.

The only true Battle Sword of Oman is "The Sayf Yamaani" The Old Omani Battle Sword . The battle field weapon of originally 751 AD. The true "Omani Sayf".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Future tasks.

1. I have commenced cataloguing of the various types of Omani Swords and will publish to forum all the different styles in due course for library.
2. A post to view the possible origin of species of the Omani Dancing Sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ The First Sword to illustrate is The Old Omani Battle Sword known as Sayf Yamaani. Emanating from an Iraqi, Abbasid design mirrored in the Topkapi and used against that museum sword style in wars between Oman and the Abbasid garrison (in Buraimi) at the time of the first Immam in 751 AD. This is a real fighting weapon designed to kill at short range by chopping, slashing and stabbing like the Roman and Greek swords before. The Abbasids were Greek fanatics and thus the Greek style of weapon reflected into their armoury.

The "Sayf al Yamaani" is a living example of technology freeze and the style was retained and copied until the 20th Century. Its manufacturing base is as yet unknown though Nizwa and Hadramaut rank high in the choice. In its wake it has seen weapons come and go witnessing the gradual demise of long black powder guns, cannon, Martini Henry and Enfields as well as interlopers and non weapons such as the dancing sword which continued and heralded traditional celebrations and was given the same name; SAYF and coupled with the same shield The TERRS of thick hide " Waterbuffalo, Whale or Rhino etc"

I placed a sword of this type in the Tariq Rajeb Museum in Kuwait 15 years ago, assisted in the collection of 20 plus of them for a top collector in Arabia and currently have 3 in my private collection.

The sword finally passed into Iconic status in the late 19th century and can be seen on this thread worn by one of the Zanzibar Sultans in a sketch.

See this thread for 11 close comparisons in the style with the Abbasid Sword.

The Sayf Yamaani.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; The last picture compares the Sayf Yamaani with The Omani Sayf Dancing Sword centre and top the Abu Falq wiggly bladed Dancing variant. Both the latter swords appeared in Oman designed and made here not as weapons but as pageant accoutrements. (See post previous)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ The Dancing Sword . Given the same name Sayf as for all Omani straight swords but not in fact a weapon but a pageantry accoutrement. Not as rumoured a Trade blade but actually locally made in Oman... as it still is today. Date of origin as yet unknown however possibly 18th C or specifically at the time of the current dynastic accession. Blade length variable from a full 30 inch down to a short version 20 inches. Spatulate tipped, thin but broad flexi blade, on a long quillonless hilt with pommel, sometimes holed.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ KATTARA Type 1.

In this post I consider "what I call" Type 1 Kattara i.e. only those curved blades with the long Omani hilt Other types I include in the next post as Kattara Type 2.

The Curved Omani Sword. No matter what the blade is known as in other countries the name Kattara is applied from the Omani viewpoint. That means Shamshir, Nimcha, Shasqka etc all get the same label Kattara in Oman. The term appears to be a late addition into the language and "may be" a bastardised word from African, Indian or English (Cutter?) etc etc.

It comprises a curved blade often either Caucaz, Central European, German, Mediteranean, and in the Shamshir; Persian and Indian. In addition there is Red Sea influence and blades of Saudia, Yemeni, Zanzibari, manufacture etc. The main feature in the Omanisation process is in the long hilt which de-weaponises many of the swords since it does away with the quillons. The other addition is of course the Omani Scabbard. The item then achieves Iconic status; as this thread describes earlier.

The date guestimate of this variant hybrid coincides, perhaps, with the introduction of the dancing sword (in the above post) with which it shares hilt and scabbard style. Somewhere in the 18th Century and perhaps parallel to the current dynasty taking power. The exact date, however, is not yet proven.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

KATTARA TYPE 2. (i.e.the rest).
Picture with white hilt shows an actual Persian Shamshir for comparison.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hawksheads. (Nimcha) Known elsewhere as Karabela. In Oman because it is curved it simply gets the Kattara sticker though even amongst locals they sometimes call it a sayf ( a sword ). I show hawksheads as an overlapping form from the last post and as a separate style probably Yemeni and boun cing into there via the Red Sea and Zanzibar..sporting the usual range of European and copied blades as in the above post. One photo shows the Ottoman version..with luxurious horn hilt and conspicuous large rivvets and a likely contender of "origin of species" ! These certainly appear to be "weapons grade swords" with or without quillons and being reasonably short would have been ideal on board ships. From the lavish original style it seems to have degenerated into a general ships long knife, shortsword, cutlass retaining its hilt shape though in simple wood with leather over. In this way it has survived as a practical weapon though it is more seen on the periphery and on dhows. It is certainly not a pageantry item. It is tempting to try the label "Yemeni Nimcha."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Origin of species Omani Dancing sword SAYF. There are no details indicating the provenance or precise timeline of this swords' origins. It is assumed to have arrived in the 18th century but how and from where or what design is unproven. Perhaps someone simply dreamed it up, from the sword pictured below, as an honorary equipment in parallel with the current ruling familys control viz;

~ Imam Ahmed bin Said bin Ahmed bin Mohammed Al-Busaidi (founder of the Al Busaidi state) was subsequently elected Imam in 1744. He was a popular and well-respected leader. Despite having to reconcile the warring factions after the civil war, Ahmad bin Said developed and built up the Oman navy into a fierce task force, which assisted in the expulsion of the Persians from Basra. He died in 1783 in Rustaq ~

The Possible Contender as to Origin.
It looks rather like a Red Sea variant sword known to have origins in Ottoman, Mamaluke, Abbasiid and likely Greek style. The hilt is, in fact, tantalizingly similar in style to the old Omani Sayf Yamani except it looks stretched since its long weighty blade requires a long handle for balance.
It is a weapon; i.e. it has a point and a spike at the pommel for the close in business. It is double edged and not flexible being stiff and powerful in make up for stabbing, thrusting and slashing. Looking closely there is what appears to be a hilt guard and though it is tenuous it does appear to be a reinforced structure forward of the grip.

On the other hand, and in the absence of proof, it may be totally unrelated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

I wonder what sword does this man at the picture have, I guess it shall be a curved kattara or can it be straight saif?

[David R]

Hi Ibrahiim, the subject of Omani "dancing swords" fascinates me. Perhaps you have posted elsewhere but..is there any chance of you posting a video of the sword dance in action. Believe it or not there is a tradition of UK sword dancing, called "Morris dancing" ie"Moorish Dancing" often claimed to have been brought back from the Crusades.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

I wonder what sword does this man at the picture have, I guess it shall be a curved kattara or can it be straight saif?

Salaams Devadatta ~ Is it Straight Sayf or Curved Kattara?

Wow !! Very interesting picture which appears to be the local governor(Wali) of Salalah in 1902 ! He wears a medal and the Royal Khanjar and a long hilt sword. Is it a curved Kattara (hilt marginally longer than the straight and worn in the dress ceremonial (Iconic) role) rather than the Straight Sayf worn in preparation to dance or enact a pageant?

The Wali is like the lord mayor (seen here in full official regalia in special head dress and official robes) though with wide sweeping jurisdiction and legal powers acting to solve local water rights, grazing rights, land disputes or arguements over family problems and other affairs ...This looks like his official portrait photograph.

The Wali could easily hold a court session with up to 10 or more cases being dealt with symultaneously rather like the Caucasian chalk circle by Tolstoy ~ instant justice ~

The long curved Kattara therefor being the badge of office of the legal governor of Salalah. "The Wali Of Salalah" . Wali Mohamed bin Salim Mirindani. Brilliant post thankyou !

Therefor it is The Omani Curved Kattara.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

Hi Ibrahiim, the subject of Omani "dancing swords" fascinates me. Perhaps you have posted elsewhere but..is there any chance of you posting a video of the sword dance in action. Believe it or not there is a tradition of UK sword dancing, called "Morris dancing" ie"Moorish Dancing" often claimed to have been brought back from the Crusades.

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!

[Devadatta]

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for ansewr.

So as far as I understand you, long straight saif was made only for dancing and never was a weapon, neither battle one nor what we can call presentation (like European court swords, small-swords, officer dress-daggers and so on which can't be counted as actual weapons due to light construction but underline the high status of their owners)

But I see one more picture of modern days - I guess it's H.M. Sultan Qaboos himself, and as I can see he is wearing a straight saif. So I just wanted to ask could there be a possibility of using straight saifs as a kind of presentation weapon, or their role is only for dancing and nothing more? Thank you in advance!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes thats the ruler holding a sword with gold trim in what appears to be either straight or curved variety though I cant tell since its cut off half way bet I suspect it is curved. None the less in the case of the ruler he can wear what he pleases The straight Sayf is "Dancer Only" not for fighting though often given as a present... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Also as I can see straight saifs often serve as official presents..

Salaams Devadatta I imagine that this is the most awarded presentation gift as is the Omani Khanjar. This Omani Sayf is in gold trim and seen being given to a visiting dignatory by the Ruler.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ The majority of old pictures depict Zanzibari or Muscat Sultans sporting great long curved Kattara swords but because of the constraints on close up pictures in the late 19th C. often the sword picture is cut at about half way!(making identification difficult) Often they are also seen with Khanjars and/ or either of the other swords (Shamshir Style or Zanzibari Nimcha)... or no weapon at all.

Something of a clue is offered by the nature of the badge of office in that in full regalia a Sultan(Official or VIP) is not likely to be about to engage in pageantry, moreover, it is the curved sword Kattara being worn to reflect the majestic rank of the wearer ( Such swords tend to have slightly longer hilts than the dancing straight Sayf variant.) The final proof in this case is in photo two of a full length showing "the curve". The Omani Kattara !

In addition below The Kattara is rigged to carry in the low mount on two sword rings.) Note also the Royal Khanjar.(Anyone is entitled to wear it) This is Tipu Sultan the great slave trader.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David~ Morris dancing.. ? I think that is a festive seasonal English pageant structure built arround ancient beliefs no? In which case it is the same sort of reasoning behind the Funoon traditions in Oman but in the Morris they use sticks and bells (and drink lots of cider !) Its a tradition but the idea is similar)... There is a dance routine enactment on web just tap into search Omani Sword Fighting I think..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

There are actualy two traditions of sword dancing in Morris, one with a conventional "sword", and the other with a grip at each end of the blade so it can be held by two dancers at the same time. It is believed the double grip originated in the use of horse grooming tool as a sword substitute. Just one of those oddities we have here in the UK.

Salaams David R ~ Then it appears that the closest comparison to the Razha section(SWORDS CELEBRATORY SECTION) in the Funoon pageant tradition~ in the form of a processional dance and secondly in a mimic fight "al yalaah" which goes back to 751 AD and beyond is Morris Dancing in the UK!

UK Pantomime styles I believe also exist in the Guy Fawks celebrations and in the ring a ring o roses enactment by children of the great plague...and in pageants such as The Furry Dance.

In Oman the unwritten form takes on quite another level and everyday "way of life" events are recorded so that the body of work (The Funoon) is sub-divided into Agriculture, Fishing, Trade, Marriage and War to name a few of the unwritten, acted out, pageantry; songs, dances, poetry and performances which are sacrasanct and handed down faithfully generation to generation.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

[Devadatta]

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Gents, sorry to interrupt your discussion, but here I found several old photos with straight saif. As I see they belong to forum member Michael Blalock, so I really hope there's no problem if I provide links:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9801865...n/photostream/

OK, the last one can be a little curved kattara - I'm not sure. But at first two we can see pure straight saif. I just wanted to ask Ibrahiim - are these photos supposed to be taken before/after the dance, or we may consider that saif could be worn at some official occasions (like a parade/dress weapon)?

Thank you

Salaams Devadatta ~ Nice photos. As you can see there are many Iconic swords on display in these pictures including Shamshir style and Zanzibari Nimchas as well as curved long Kattaras with long hilts and some pictures with straight swords in the dancing configuration of Omani Sayf. Difficult to say how these photos were set up... The one with the tree in the background looks like a studio set up. Who knows which of these swords were supplied just for the picture shoot or who was wearing what sword for what purpose Im afraid... Al I can say is that as a rule The dancing straight sayf was not used as an Iconic sword(as far as I know~ but it might have been) but that the others were certainly used for that purpose.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !""

This has already been answered. The lack of quillons or guard is no measure. The evidence can be found in many swords such as:

1- Shashkas.
2- Afghan Shashkas.
3- Sinai bedouin Saber.
4- Dhas.
5- Barongs.
6- Khyber knives.

So there is plenty of evidence to counter your assumption here.

""The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...""

Sure, that might be the rules of the dance. But you are neglecting the existance of sharp saifs and ones with pointy tips.. oh wait, these are one offs... many one offs.

""The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!""

Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)

""No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.""

This is subjective because not every sword that went to use through out history has a spiked pommel. The straight Omani saif not having a spiked pommel does not say much about its purpose ;-)

""What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.""

Or maybe they just called a saif.. a saif like most arabs do?:P

""Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...""

You still missed the point. My reference was regarding the situation in which the badawi has evolved, the straight Omani "MAY" have went to the exact same thing as like the badawi, there are solid battle omani saifs and dance ones. So all am saying is, your whole conclusion is assumptive.


(Decided to reply here, in order not to delay Illiad's topic)

Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate.

Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)

There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.

The only true Omani Battle Sword with a straight stiff pointed blade is the "Sayf Yamaani". The Old Omani Battle Sword. No others exist.

The spiked Pommel is answered at the other post however it is assumed that a short battle sword (Sayf Yamaani) with a spiked pommel would have in its arsenal of possible uses the close quarter battle technique employing a strike to soft targets like the eyes neck and face. I shall search for documentary proof; as always.

Your Quote
Not necessarily, after all, not all Kattaras are flexible blades ;-) (I take the whole "solid blades are touristy" argument as very.. well pointless)Unquote

This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were.

(Naturally the Old Omani Battle Sword "Sayf Yamaani" is as described; a fighting weapon..Stiff, powerful, double edged, short blade, pointed, with quillons and a pommel spike.. emanating in about circa 751 AD and giving its "Sayf" name and "Terrs Shield" over to the new honorific pageant style of Flexible Omani dancing Sayf in about 1744)
The Sayf Yamaani exibits the classic example of weapons freeze.

Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.

The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..

1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.

2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.

3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!

4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)

Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these.

There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.

HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.

The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..""

Wa Alaikum elSalam,

Ibrahim, I very much value the info which you have brought. But the "information" which you have brought to support that the straight saif is dance only are basically nothing but your own assumptions.

""1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.""

I can claim that a duck is not a duck and insist upon it, but that does not make me right :-)

"" 2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.""

Evidence states otherwise as there are straight saifs with solid to flexible (sharp and battle ready non the less) with older mounts.

""3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!""

This all could be right but again, Omanis now caring more for dancing blades do not say much about the time when the sword they danced with, was also the one they'd take for battle.

""4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)""

Are you against confirmation?

http://www.hdrmut.net/vb/t365731.html (pict of the full sword seems to be removed)

http://wadilaqat.forumarabia.com/t1022-topic

They dont say much but you can look for clues into how they refer to items. This is pretty much all I did and I used it as a supporting argument to your argument. This would be nice for you if you can read arabic.

""Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these. ""

Are you refering to Khyber knives? sure, there are short variants, but they are basically short swords and are used as swords.

""There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.""

Flexibility wouldnt really matter much if you are not going to parry with the sword. Imo, considering that most arabs rarely use any form of heavy armor, a saif with a sharp blade and some durability would be lethal even if its flexible or not.


""HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.""

This is a strawman of my question. I asked about specific weapons (swords) which YOU have refered to as knives : "normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you" This is false information as a dha, a yataghan, shashkas, barongs and khyber knives are swords and certainly not the length of a knife (can argue that barongs and khybers are short but hey, not as short as a knife.)

Am sure you have more achievements done in your life but please do answer the questions instead of strawmans as they waste your and my time.

But to get more into the point, here are links to swords that are battle tested without guards and quillons:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=67

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3345

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3225

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4565

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=568

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=518

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3736

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3378

Using your logic, these are not combat weapons

""The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !""

Similar evolution. Again, these 2 sword types I never claimed to be one or anything, but they basically went into the same thing where a real thing turns into more of a dancing sword. :-)