The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored. - Page 9

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:53 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 11:47 AM #270

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally irecognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:54 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 11:51 AM #271

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

Originally Posted by fernando
Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally {un?}recognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.

(i think fernando meant 'unrecognised') (Quote)

yes, i'd noticed the odd hilt myself, can we have a picture of the whole sword please is the end of the pommel peened?
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:54 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote)

Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt.
What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:54 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 03:57 PM #273

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi JK,
I see you have done some most interesting research on this unusual item, and am most curious as well on the Sumerian association. Other than the extremely ancient Mesopotamian civilization , or the Cimmerians who lived much later, I think only of the well known movies of 'Conan the Barbarian'.
While the 'theatrical nature' of this item seems well placed, it does not seem to correspond to props in that film.

The markings are indeed a most interesting mélange of some used in various contexts by German makers of 17th and 18th centuries A.D.
I think the 'anchor' type mark resembles similar seen on blades from Valencia, Spain in the 16th into 17th c. A.D.
The sun and moon were cosmological symbols used on blades in Germany and East Europe in the 17th-18th c. as mentioned.
The stars were added embellishments in these contexts.
The grouping of these symbols, while not particularly well executed, seems most interesting on a theatrical sword as these kinds of details are not usually added.

You noted that this item was added to your collection, may I ask what type of swords or edged weapons do you collect?
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:55 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274

Posred by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101,
Glos. UK

i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:55 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by kronckew
i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help. (Quote)

It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances.

It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations.

Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him.

Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges.

Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276

Posted by.
joyfulkitten
Member

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Washington State, USA

Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 11:40 AM #278

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
... I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

If you don't know of any resizing programs, like this one:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...ppowertoys.mspx

You may exceptionally send the pictures to me and i will resize them and upload them for you.
fernando@vikingsword.com
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:57 PM

Old 23rd July 2016, 04:49 PM #279

Posted by:
corrado26
Member

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany

Originally Posted by fernando
They also call this symbol a christogram. (Quote)

This Nomen Sacrum IHS derives from the transkription of the first two and the last letter of the Greek name of Jesus - Iota-Eta-Sigma-Omikron-Ypsilon-Sigma or ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, = JESUS. The I is the Greek Iota, the H = Eta and the S = Sigma. So it has nothing to do with the Jesuit-association.
corrado26
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:57 PM

Old 23rd July 2016, 06:28 PM #280

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Was i so distant, Corrado ?

"The JHS or IHS monogram of the name of Jesus (or traditional Christogram symbol of western Christianity), derived from the first three letters of the Greek name of Jesus, Iota-Eta-Sigma (ΙΗΣΟΥΣ). Partly based on memories of church decorations. Has some degree of resemblance to a portion of the emblem of the Jesuits, due to common medieval influences (see Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus), but is not exactly the same, nor intended to be so."
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:59 PM

Old 24th July 2016, 06:52 AM #281

Posted by:
corrado26
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany

No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
corrado26
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 04:59 PM

Old 24th July 2016, 07:54 AM #282

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

further to that: it's one of the earliest christian decorations. , Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient sea goddess Atargatis, so was a perfect secret cover symbol.

from the writings of the immortal god of knowledge, wikipedia:

The ichthys or ichthus (/ˈɪkθəs, from the Greek ikhthýs (ἰχθύς, "fish"), is a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish. It was used by early Christians as a secret Christian symbol and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish".

ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthus) is a backronym/acrostic for "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".
Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".
Upsilon (y) is the first letter of (h)uios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son".
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:00 PM

Old 24th July 2016, 10:37 AM #283

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,885

Originally Posted by corrado26
No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
corrado26 (Quote)

I took it like a correction, not a criticism ... and i saw nothing wrong with that .
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:00 PM

Old 27th July 2016, 12:01 AM #284

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

ICHTHYOPHAGI...Means land of the fish eaters...and was applied by Ptolomy the great map maker at Alexandria..See the map below where it is inscribed across what is now The UAE, Mussandam and part of Oman.

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:00 PM

Old 27th July 2016, 07:51 AM #285

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

early version of "beware - beyond be monsters and the lands of the animal headed cannibals".

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:01 PM

Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286

Posred by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same.
It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons.
To add to Wayne's well detailed notes.

In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters.
The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well.

Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J.

By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS.

These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian.

By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added.

However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented
Iesus Hominum Salvator.
In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe,

Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held.
It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:01 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 2,288

Battle of the Milvian Bridge

legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets.

*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday.

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by kronckew
*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote)

From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot .

fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289

Posted by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate,
Rm. 101, Glos. UK

monday=Segunda-feira
tuesday=terça-feira
thursday=quinta-feira
friday=Sexta-feira
saturday=sábado
sunday=domingo

boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda.

feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line.

us heretics, however, still honour the old gods.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:02 PM

Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Ah, ah .
You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way.
The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:03 PM

Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291

Posted by:
blue lander
Member

Join Date: Nov 2013

Does anybody recognize this mark?

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:03 PM

Old 4th August 2016, 09:51 PM #292

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by blue lander
Does anybody recognize this mark? (Quote)

What sort of blade is this on?
Unusual to see this kind of cartouche on tang rather than blade.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:05 PM

Old 4th August 2016, 09:52 PM #293

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Yes, it should be interesting to see the whole blade.
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:05 PM

Old 5th August 2016, 08:58 PM #294

Posted by:
blue lander
Member

Join Date: Nov 2013

It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:06 PM

Old 6th August 2016, 07:41 AM #295

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Qote)

Interesting court dagger?... Probably European perhaps Louis XV1 ? Is there more information at the throat... ?
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:06 PM

Old 6th August 2016, 08:47 AM #296

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Quote)

Hi Blue Lander,

I would be not to regretful, in my opinion that blade is a shortened sword blade of a late 18th C military officers sword.
Just look how the fuller runs trough right to the end , on this type of blade it should stop before the end, more or less two third of the blade length.
The edges on the side of the fuller are sharpened.
Also the length of the ricasso would be totally out of proportion.
Here is a sword with a similar type of blade.

kind regards

Ulfberth

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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:06 PM

Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Well caught Ulfberht!!
That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion.

In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms.

But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart?

Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ?
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:07 PM

Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

True Jim,

In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ?
What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened.
Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms.
My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes.
Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon.

kind regards

Ulfberth
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fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:07 PM

Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by ulfberth
... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote)

Oh yes,
Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless.
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19th October 2017, 04:53 PM	#241
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 11:47 AM #270 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Amazing ! While (some of) the marks are not totally irecognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:32 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:54 PM	#242
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 11:51 AM #271 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK Originally Posted by fernando Amazing ! While (some of) the marks are not totally {un?}recognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both. (i think fernando meant 'unrecognised') (Quote) yes, i'd noticed the odd hilt myself, can we have a picture of the whole sword please is the end of the pommel peened? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:33 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:54 PM	#243
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by joyfulkitten I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote) Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt. What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:35 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:54 PM	#244
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 03:57 PM #273 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi JK, I see you have done some most interesting research on this unusual item, and am most curious as well on the Sumerian association. Other than the extremely ancient Mesopotamian civilization , or the Cimmerians who lived much later, I think only of the well known movies of 'Conan the Barbarian'. While the 'theatrical nature' of this item seems well placed, it does not seem to correspond to props in that film. The markings are indeed a most interesting mélange of some used in various contexts by German makers of 17th and 18th centuries A.D. I think the 'anchor' type mark resembles similar seen on blades from Valencia, Spain in the 16th into 17th c. A.D. The sun and moon were cosmological symbols used on blades in Germany and East Europe in the 17th-18th c. as mentioned. The stars were added embellishments in these contexts. The grouping of these symbols, while not particularly well executed, seems most interesting on a theatrical sword as these kinds of details are not usually added. You noted that this item was added to your collection, may I ask what type of swords or edged weapons do you collect? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:36 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:55 PM	#245
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274 Posred by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience. again, more pics would help. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:37 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:55 PM	#246
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by kronckew i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience. again, more pics would help. (Quote) It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances. It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations. Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him. Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges. Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:38 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:56 PM	#247
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276 Posted by. joyfulkitten Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Washington State, USA Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination. I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for? I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:39 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:56 PM	#248
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by joyfulkitten Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination. I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for? I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote) Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:29 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:56 PM	#249
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th March 2016, 11:40 AM #278 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by joyfulkitten ... I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote) If you don't know of any resizing programs, like this one: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...ppowertoys.mspx You may exceptionally send the pictures to me and i will resize them and upload them for you. fernando@vikingsword.com . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:43 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:57 PM	#250
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 23rd July 2016, 04:49 PM #279 Posted by: corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Originally Posted by fernando They also call this symbol a christogram. (Quote) This Nomen Sacrum IHS derives from the transkription of the first two and the last letter of the Greek name of Jesus - Iota-Eta-Sigma-Omikron-Ypsilon-Sigma or ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, = JESUS. The I is the Greek Iota, the H = Eta and the S = Sigma. So it has nothing to do with the Jesuit-association. corrado26 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:45 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:57 PM	#251
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Christogram Old 23rd July 2016, 06:28 PM #280 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Was i so distant, Corrado ? "The JHS or IHS monogram of the name of Jesus (or traditional Christogram symbol of western Christianity), derived from the first three letters of the Greek name of Jesus, Iota-Eta-Sigma (ΙΗΣΟΥΣ). Partly based on memories of church decorations. Has some degree of resemblance to a portion of the emblem of the Jesuits, due to common medieval influences (see Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus), but is not exactly the same, nor intended to be so." . (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:29 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:59 PM	#252
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th July 2016, 06:52 AM #281 Posted by: corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise. corrado26 . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:47 PM.

19th October 2017, 04:59 PM	#253
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th July 2016, 07:54 AM #282 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK further to that: it's one of the earliest christian decorations. , Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient sea goddess Atargatis, so was a perfect secret cover symbol. from the writings of the immortal god of knowledge, wikipedia: The ichthys or ichthus (/ˈɪkθəs, from the Greek ikhthýs (ἰχθύς, "fish"), is a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish. It was used by early Christians as a secret Christian symbol and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish". ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthus) is a backronym/acrostic for "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour". Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus". Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed". Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God". Upsilon (y) is the first letter of (h)uios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son". Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior". (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:30 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:00 PM	#254
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th July 2016, 10:37 AM #283 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 5,885 Originally Posted by corrado26 No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise. corrado26 (Quote) I took it like a correction, not a criticism ... and i saw nothing wrong with that . , Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:30 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:00 PM	#255
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th July 2016, 12:01 AM #284 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE ICHTHYOPHAGI...Means land of the fish eaters...and was applied by Ptolomy the great map maker at Alexandria..See the map below where it is inscribed across what is now The UAE, Mussandam and part of Oman. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:31 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:00 PM	#256
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th July 2016, 07:51 AM #285 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK early version of "beware - beyond be monsters and the lands of the animal headed cannibals". (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:31 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:01 PM	#257
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286 Posred by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same. It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons. To add to Wayne's well detailed notes. In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters. The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well. Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J. By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS. These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian. By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added. However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented Iesus Hominum Salvator. In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe, Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held. It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:52 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:01 PM	#258
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	IN HOC SIGNO VINCES Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK Posts: 2,288 Battle of the Milvian Bridge legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets. this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:32 PM.*

19th October 2017, 05:02 PM	#259
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by kronckew this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote) From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:55 PM.*

19th October 2017, 05:02 PM	#260
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289 Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK monday=Segunda-feira tuesday=terça-feira thursday=quinta-feira friday=Sexta-feira saturday=sábado sunday=domingo boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda. feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line. us heretics, however, still honour the old gods. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:56 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:02 PM	#261
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Ah, ah . You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way. The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:57 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:03 PM	#262
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291 Posted by: blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Does anybody recognize this mark? (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:32 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:03 PM	#263
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th August 2016, 09:51 PM #292 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by blue lander Does anybody recognize this mark? (Quote) What sort of blade is this on? Unusual to see this kind of cartouche on tang rather than blade. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 05:59 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:05 PM	#264
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th August 2016, 09:52 PM #293 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Yes, it should be interesting to see the whole blade. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:00 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:05 PM	#265
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th August 2016, 08:58 PM #294 Posted by: blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:33 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:06 PM	#266
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th August 2016, 07:41 AM #295 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by blue lander It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Qote) Interesting court dagger?... Probably European perhaps Louis XV1 ? Is there more information at the throat... ? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:02 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:06 PM	#267
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th August 2016, 08:47 AM #296 Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Originally Posted by blue lander It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Quote) Hi Blue Lander, I would be not to regretful, in my opinion that blade is a shortened sword blade of a late 18th C military officers sword. Just look how the fuller runs trough right to the end , on this type of blade it should stop before the end, more or less two third of the blade length. The edges on the side of the fuller are sharpened. Also the length of the ricasso would be totally out of proportion. Here is a sword with a similar type of blade. kind regards Ulfberth (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 07:33 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:06 PM	#268
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Well caught Ulfberht!! That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion. In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms. But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart? Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ? . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:04 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:07 PM	#269
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298 Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 True Jim, In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ? What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened. Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms. My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes. Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon. kind regards Ulfberth . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:05 PM.

19th October 2017, 05:07 PM	#270
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299 Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by ulfberth ... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote) Oh yes, Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:06 PM.