Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not quite since Me Fecit or made in...was used in Solingen as well... and in Hounslow..See


https://stmargarets.london/archives/...ow_swords.html

However, you will see the same animal with an H in it on the above site... It appears repeated all over the web but I have never seen another.

Other Me Fecit examples ~ 'PETER BRABENDER ME FECIT IN SOLINGEN'

"CLEMENS HORN ME FECIT SOLINGEN.

“JOSEPH JENCKES ME FECIT HOUNSLO.

An English Basket shown below is from Hounslow with ME FECIT HOUNSLO on the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like?

That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH?

A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year.
I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum.

You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc

On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

SEE your #35 on Benjamin Stone...who appears to have been a major importer of European blades into London viz; think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone.
I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm posting a link to a pdf of a chapter from Richard.D.Bezdek's book: Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland. I've exclaimed before just what a monumental work this is; and here is another example of that splendid endeavour. It is the history of swordmaking at Hounslow, and by extension Oxford. Apart from giving a full account of Benjamin Stone's significant achievements, it also introduces names that would become important in the Shotley Bridge venture. It further indicates the applications of petitions filed prior to Shotley Bridge for the exclusive right to manufacture hollow sword-blades, by the patented grinding process, at Hounslow, which is very significant in my opinion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...

[urbanspaceman]

I have unearthed such a treasure trove of information on the SB swordmakers today that it will take me several days to go through it all and extract the missing details of the story. Info from both the Shotley Bridge Heritage Trust and the Consett Heritage Trust.
Perhaps when all the facts are established (and that may never actually occur of course), the mystique may dwindle, taking the attraction of the adventure with it - but I doubt it.

[urbanspaceman]

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

[urbanspaceman]

attached is the 1703 agreement sword specs

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

Certainly the Solingen people had a machine with little wheels...presumeably small grinders..and hollows were the heavily grooved out blades as seen on Colichemarde blades. Below is how the normal fullers were hammered into a flat blade but this was a different process to Colichemardes. I dont believe these blades were drawn out like wire... but ground out with spinning grindstone wheels..The Forte being left flat for strength though you will see some coli blades with three faces all the way to the guard and no squared off Forte.

Below the black arrow denotes the mallet...for ordinary fuller placement on flat blades.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Although Burton was wrong at page 135 in his epic Book of Swords where he indicated Colichemarde going suddenly out of fashion at the time of Louis 14th he does show interesting perspective on the same page with Biscayan blades not much different to Colichemarde.

[urbanspaceman]

Looking at the list (above) of required blades from the SB smiths in 1703, we see many mentions of hollows - sometimes three hollows; what is that all about?
I don't understand some of the terms used to describe blade types so I don't understand what they meant by three hollows. Any help here anybody?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

Its a good point and since they were all smuggling the basic Colichemardes into England at the time I personally don't believe there was a machine in the entire country doing this work. They were all making it up !! If there was a machine then... where is it now? There wasnt one ... It was baloney !!

[Jim McDougall]

Keith,
The three hollows were, if I understand, the triangular or three faced blades , if I recall, they were termed 'Biscayan' as noted by Ibrahiim
The colichemarde blades I believe were primarily produced in Solingen, but I would not be surprised at French production as well. I agree, it is unlikely any were ever produced in Shotley, but most certainly were imported in some degree.

All the best
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another take on what they meant by Hollows; They use the word in two ways I suspect... First to describe a sword e.g. Hangers with two hollows by which I think they mean fullers. However when they say hollow grind they mean the type of blade seen on colichemarde and seen on the chart at 36 where the bayonets are listed.

[Jim McDougall]

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

Salaams Jim and exactly the kind of backup needed just now as the thread enters murky waters... not that we have crystal clarity and as experienced by Kieth on the ground quite a lot of myth and legend mixed with some half truths and a lot of complete nonsense not least the mercury filled hollow blade puzzle..and not with standing that how far he has advanced our understanding of the Shotley situation...A key factor in swordmaking in England at the time.

I was looking at the odd stories on Fullers and how that became muddled but interestingly how it only appears in the mid 19thC in terms used by blacksmiths and presumably sword makers...I wonder did they use the old English Hollows terminology...which would add to the puzzlement in calling blades hollow and of hollow grinding which is completely different~

Using wiki in this regard I note Quote" The term "fuller" is from the Old English fuliere, meaning "one who fulls (pleats) cloth." It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster's Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation. King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: "...their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors." The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term "gutter" meant "to cut small hollows," as in the gutter of a crossbow."Unquote.
Voila!!

[urbanspaceman]

Gentlemen, what about my proposition that the hollows were hammered-in and ground smooth? Shotley Bridge nearly went bankrupt paying Den Haydon for stock, so to waste all those grooves' worth of finished steel ground into filings does not make sense. Far better to spend time hammering them out on an anvil - or smuggling them in from Rotterdam. I am sure Solingen would feel the same way, as they were buying their steel from the Swedes. Was a man's time more expensive than steel stock?

That's why I keep banging-on about hammering in the hollows, as maybe there never was a machine anywhere! Otherwise, why not make a one at Shotley Bridge; those guys knew what it looked like, how it worked, and had all the skills and materials needed to build a one.

So far, I am unable to envisage a machine that can grind a gradually tapering groove into the side of a triangular cross-section length of steel; and I'm usually pretty good at that sort of thing. I'll keep trying.

Speaking of steel, something I discovered yesterday was that there were two Bertrams: William and John; I can't find my notes telling me which one was shipwrecked off the mouth of the Tyne. They were both from Remscheid, which was a Lutheran suburb of Solingen back then. So, a Bertram was obviously sent-for to run the forges and provide steel in 1690, which - at least - was the date of the shipwreck. The other Bertram (and I'm thinking the father, as the shipwrecked Bertram was only 20) may have come earlier to help Vinting, then sent for his son.

Vinting was Swedish by the way, and descended from the 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth tasked with finding, mining and working metals around the country. The Vintings started work back in the 1500s organising the mining of lead at nearby Ryton.

Thomas Carnforth, the Newcastle cutler, commandeered the current Vinting to help set up the works at SB back in 1685; Vinting almost certainly supplied the recommendation to Dell regarding the suitability of the Derwent valley.

As Hounslow was still making blades into the early 1680s, Dell, who was the principle German blade-mill owner, would be selling to Carnforth. And delivering - as payment had to be collected; which put him in Newcastle well in advance of 1685, when he set up the syndicate and brought up Hoppe and Heneckels, who had moved back to Hounslow from Oxford.

I am quite certain that Carnforth would be buying from Dell at Hounslow, because there was the high duty on German imports via nearby Rotterdam; so, assuming the machine existed - and only in Solingen, the hollow blades would be the one thing that Dell could not supply... hence the initial plan.
Is the picture coming into focus? Are you all following me so far? Please pick holes in the above if you see any flaws in the picture: I need the best editors.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Great stuff Keith.The point is we dont know..as no machine ever appeared but it may well have been a hammer and grinding wheel combination. They used big water powered and later steam powered hammers. Any luck with the hoard of blades you mentioned earlier..?

[urbanspaceman]

The chest of blades was given to a local museum.
People who work in museums consider all the exhibits and archived treasures as their own, and in the past I have had to threaten curators with legal action before they have allowed access to what actually belongs to the public; unless it is a loan of course.
Anyway, the chap who donated the blades told me to give him a call if I had any difficulty accessing the hoard, so I will have to do that this week, as my polite request of two weeks ago has been politely ignored.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I wonder what blade marks they have ... Assuming they were on route to Shotley Bridge? I would guess passau wolf marks. Good luck with the search.

[urbanspaceman]

They had come from Shotley Bridge and were certainly for the Danbys who were staunch Catholics and had been for generations. They are one of England's oldest families dating back before the Normans to the time of Edward the Confessor. They are still an unbroken line today. It is the current head of the family that is helping me.
I'm also chasing up the Percys at Alnwick: not quite as old a family line but certainly higher profile today thanks to Mr Potter.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Percy family is a most interesting group... I noted the excellent history of each member on https://www.alnwickcastle.com/explor...e-percy-family

[Hotspur]

There are Percies, and then there were Percy's
A better bookmark, fwiw.
http://www.percyfamilyhistory.com/?

I bring mention of that because of the default and adoption of the name. Thus Hugh Percy, of the American Revolution, wasn't really a Perci at all

[Hotspur]

Do not get me started. Some images are too large to attach here.

I have a pennon/banner buried somewhere.

The Percies were often on the "wrong" side, even during the retreat from Lexigton and Concord but aside from the gunpowder plot generation, true and valiant warriors at war.

Cheers

GC aka Hotspur

The MDL photos courtesy of the Michael D Long pages more than a decade ago.

Also a documents on crescents. Not really topical to the Shotley Bridge discussion but still interesting.

I don't know if this Tudor era page will load (resized it) May be too small to read well. Another now resized, perhaps it will load. Phew, what a workout.

[urbanspaceman]

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

Oh goody, a gentle grammarian with a red pencil. Of dozens of edits i had made today, I left one for your attentions.

Cheers

GC