Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,

Detail you cannot see at #25 on this thread is the style of hilt on the Sultan Bargash Old Omani Sayf however~ heres one~ From the Book by Richardson and Dorr; "The Craft Heritage of Oman" ~ Forum please note the identical style on the Royal Khanjar at the thread "The Omani Khanjar"#1 by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been away from this fascinating thread for a while, and spent the better part of yesterday rereading, checking sources and notes and trying to absorb the basic course of these amazing discussions. This thread has become almost 'textbook' in the serious study of an indiginous weapon form and it is outstanding to see these kinds of approaches to learning from these weapons. As we have been seeing there are several instances of focus on particular weapons in this depth, and while commending Ibrahiim on this with the kattara I would be remiss in not recognizing the amazing work done by Iain in his study of the takouba, which has now brought in the kaskara and joined by Chris.
What is so important about this is that we are virtually joining forces in these studies and recognizing the powerful connection between these weapons and thier place in the vast trade networks which are key in the development of these forms.

I would like to add a few of my own observations and perspectives in the case of the thread topic, and the kattara, and try to reestablish my understandings thus far.

I think we agree that the 'old form' of Omani sword (thank you Ibrahiim for the post with example with its silvered sheathing, the first I have seen!) is a quite old form which may reflect early types of hilt in interior Omani regions. While we can presume this style hilt may reflect Abbasid styles of the 8th century, if I understand correctly we are uncertain of the exact form used as hilts surviving are not extant and as far as I know there are no iconographic sources reflecting these hilts. It is well established that in virtually all cases as seen by the swords in Yucel, early blades survive but the mounts are almost always newer. Blades as we know were remounted and reused through many generations, while even larger numbers were probably recycled as steel was valuable.

By the latter 18th century, trade had as noted long fluorished in Oman with Muscat the key market for the Persian Gulf, and Sultan bin Ahmad allied with Great Britain in thier treaty in 1798, pledging to help protect British interests in India. Trade between Africa and Oman was active and the EIC established a trade station in the Gulf under their auspices.
I would point out that in this very time, England was having issues with the abundance of trade blades from Germany which was contested by the English makers. Many German blades began being diverted to other markets which included North Africa by the early years of the 19th century. This simply augmented already well established systems of trade blades headed there long before, but more blades undoubtedly entered the Red Sea trade and by there into Arabian networks.

The fact that it is difficult to find examples of trade blades in present times still extant in examples of these sayfs is not at all surprising, given the fact that these swords often ended up leaving the regions in trade or recycled as they became old and worn. With the advent of military campaigns, colonialism, and of course tourism, souveniers and collecting these have largely disappeared into other contexts. Even in the Sudan during the British campaigns of the 1880s, so many native weapons had been consumed by souvenier hunting that a cottage industry creating more began...many of the components for these 'native' weapons were produced in England!

Actually, despite what is found in examples in these modern times, the vestiges of the once present European examples and thier subsequent African produced counterparts certainly were at some point earlier there in some degree.
I am not sure that I can accept a sword hilt style which was established so distinctly that its form became incorporated into a religious icon and so much so that it remained unchanged for 1000 years. As we know over time styles and decoration on everything changes in most cases, even in degree with traditional items particularly in religious context, but even such symbolic instances change no matter how subtly.
We are also well aware of 'revival' styles in weaponry and atavistic application in many forms. The swords rehilted in Istanbul in the 16th century are presumed to reflect early styles of the most revered periods in early Islam.

We then consider the evolution of the cylindrical hilt which if I understand correctly developed around the 18th century and seems oriented primarily in coastal regions of Muscat. The Sultanate of Oman extended across Strait of Hormuz to Iran, regions now Pakistan (Baluchistan) and to the Zanzibar regions of SE Africa. While Portugal controlled many of these regions prior to 1650, to believe that they did not bring in European blades would not seem possible. The Omani not only were industrious merchants but maintained powerful naval control in the gulf. Ras al Khaimah had been a wealthy port since the 7th century, and trade with India and Africa extant throughout early times well into 18th century.
German blades became well established in India, North Africa, throughout Europe, the Caucusus and many regions worldwide, and by the 18th century virtually dominated most trade networks as far as that commodity. To think that Oman, one of the most powerful trade networks in many of these, would be impervious to the use of these blades is another suggestion I cannot accept.

I would point out also that the 'running wolf' mark had become so far from its origins in Passau as generally held by the late 16th century that it was used 'interpretively' by many blademaking centers, and adopted into native cultures application through later years. Its actual use in Solingen and Italy had waned by the latter 17th century, and ceased being used by then. The exceptions were use in England by Shotley Bridge makers, and the mid 18th century use by Samuel Harvey (with his initials). In the Caucusus the Chechen makers began using the marking in about the 18th century as the 'ters maymal'. At some point other native blade makers began copying the mark in North Africa as well. Much as with the well known dual crescent moons, these marks were intended to imbue magic into the blade, and seem to have been applied to that end. While price may be construed as a motive, the talismanic appeal is more than the quality/price allusion in my thinking.
These often indiscernable 'quadrapeds' are therefore essentially all interpretations of a stylized symbol whose application was never intended to be deceptive but to recall a long standing tradition in blades, from Europe into a number of other cultures.

I just wanted to reassert my views at this point and to reaffirm my understandings of this most fascinating discussion on the kattara/sayf.

[Iain]

Well said Jim, you managed to sum up my points with a lot more detail than I could have. Whether or not trade blades are present in the flexible sayfs encountered today, there is no doubt where the influence comes from. How the different, new, hilt style came into being is of course another question entirely...

Also very nice photo of the royal sayf Ibrahiim, fascinating to see that hilt style in a sayf!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Iain and as we have all agreed here, this is a fact finding mission to discover more on these swords of Oman....and I've still bveen at it, second day now going through all this stuff!!

I think I have another angle on why German blades (which seem to be the prevalent denomination) would have likely been widely used in various times.

Looking into "The Armies of the Caliphs" (Hugh Kennedy, 2001, p.173-175), there are some interesting references from the "al Suyuf wa Ajnasiha" (Swords and Thier Kinds, Ishaq al Kindi c.870AD). Al Kindi was commissioned by the Abbasid caliph Mu'tasim to complete this study.
These notes coupled with those of Friedrich Schwarzlose (Leipzig, 1888) who extracted sword terms etc. from early Arabian poetry, give some interesting insight into swords in Arabic tradition.

Many of the swords are called by names which reflect where they were produced such as Qala'i (believed Central Arabia but could be Iraq) ; Diyafi, from Iraq; Baylamani (from Yemen, possibly India); Mushrafi (Yemen or Syria).
Kennedy notes that the uncertainty of locations suggests these may have been terms for sword types rather than locations.
What is key here is that Yemen keeps predominating, and while it has been suggested that that name is colloquially applied to relatively vast area, I think it is more specific in this parlance and refers to southern Arabia.
Schwarzlose notes that swords from India were best, followed by those from Yemen made in Indian fashion "muhanned").
The references go further to say that the best swords were made in Yemen or Khurasan with lesser qualities from Kufa, Basra and at the lowest, Egypt.
It then notes Frankish (franjiya) swords but does not specify if imported or by type.

It is known that Frankish swords were exported into Andalusian Spain, but unclear whether to Arabia.

While these references are of course from the 9th century along with the Schwarzlose references which may include varying periods, the key point is that Yemen appears to have held high station in the sword production status.
Kennedy (op.cit.) notes that the most expensive swords were Yemeni, and that soldiers of the Abbasid period could easily afford Egyptian swords but that a Yemeni sword could cost up to 10 months salary. How long this esteemed reputation prevailed is hard to say, and clearly there was great variation in affordability for swords which likely continued on for centuries and following established traditions. It is noted in earlier discussions here that Yemen was a source for swords into Oman in more recent times as well, but there was another factor which may have presented more affordable blades some time before that...trade blades, mostly from Germany.
Elgood notes (p.16) that of the favored straight blades many good Genoese and Solingen blades from 16th century onward were exported to the Arab lands and India. He does note that the locally produced blades tended to be lighter in weight and the fullers more crudely drawn. This of course does favor notes by Ibrahiim toward the Omani blades over trade blades, in the case of the swords intended for the Razha. I believe that much as there are court and dress swords as opposed to combat swords, not all sayf/kattara were intended to perform Razha in the Funoon, and many were intended for regular wear.

Here I would note that not all Omani sayf/kattara must be in accord with the swords intended for the Razha, and Burton (1884) notes on these cylindrical hilted style broadswords "...is the usual shape worn by Arab gentlemen". This was observed by him in his visit to Zanzibar around 1858, and these swords are noted and illustrated in Demmin (1877) as well as Zanzibari. Burton goes on to say that these swords were for show, and quite unwieldy (he was of course a bit curmudgeonly and elitist as far as swordsmanship). I would imagine that the examples in Zanzibar carried even more of the trade blades from African sources from the Red Sea trade. Many of these blades also of course entered Yemen through Aden, and into the Hadhramaut as well as by sea back to Muscat.

I would imagine that the higher end blades were to ranking individuals, tribal leaders and wealthy merchants while trade blades were seen among the more plebian swords and rank and file. As local copying became more prevalent the marks long established among imported blades of earlier times were likely added as status or quality symbols for marketing as suggested.

The swords and heirloom blades of esteemed or high ranking individuals tend to be preserved, while lower every day weapons often do not fare as well. Most have already as mentioned earlier, gone into other contexts and are notably hard to find in our times, thus lacking as evidence to the earlier presence of these types of trade blades.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have been away from this fascinating thread for a while, and spent the better part of yesterday rereading, checking sources and notes and trying to absorb the basic course of these amazing discussions. This thread has become almost 'textbook' in the serious study of an indiginous weapon form and it is outstanding to see these kinds of approaches to learning from these weapons. As we have been seeing there are several instances of focus on particular weapons in this depth, and while commending Ibrahiim on this with the kattara I would be remiss in not recognizing the amazing work done by Iain in his study of the takouba, which has now brought in the kaskara and joined by Chris.
What is so important about this is that we are virtually joining forces in these studies and recognizing the powerful connection between these weapons and thier place in the vast trade networks which are key in the development of these forms.

I would like to add a few of my own observations and perspectives in the case of the thread topic, and the kattara, and try to reestablish my understandings thus far.

I think we agree that the 'old form' of Omani sword (thank you Ibrahiim for the post with example with its silvered sheathing, the first I have seen!) is a quite old form which may reflect early types of hilt in interior Omani regions. While we can presume this style hilt may reflect Abbasid styles of the 8th century, if I understand correctly we are uncertain of the exact form used as hilts surviving are not extant and as far as I know there are no iconographic sources reflecting these hilts. It is well established that in virtually all cases as seen by the swords in Yucel, early blades survive but the mounts are almost always newer. Blades as we know were remounted and reused through many generations, while even larger numbers were probably recycled as steel was valuable.

By the latter 18th century, trade had as noted long fluorished in Oman with Muscat the key market for the Persian Gulf, and Sultan bin Ahmad allied with Great Britain in thier treaty in 1798, pledging to help protect British interests in India. Trade between Africa and Oman was active and the EIC established a trade station in the Gulf under their auspices.
I would point out that in this very time, England was having issues with the abundance of trade blades from Germany which was contested by the English makers. Many German blades began being diverted to other markets which included North Africa by the early years of the 19th century. This simply augmented already well established systems of trade blades headed there long before, but more blades undoubtedly entered the Red Sea trade and by there into Arabian networks.

The fact that it is difficult to find examples of trade blades in present times still extant in examples of these sayfs is not at all surprising, given the fact that these swords often ended up leaving the regions in trade or recycled as they became old and worn. With the advent of military campaigns, colonialism, and of course tourism, souveniers and collecting these have largely disappeared into other contexts. Even in the Sudan during the British campaigns of the 1880s, so many native weapons had been consumed by souvenier hunting that a cottage industry creating more began...many of the components for these 'native' weapons were produced in England!

Actually, despite what is found in examples in these modern times, the vestiges of the once present European examples and thier subsequent African produced counterparts certainly were at some point earlier there in some degree.
I am not sure that I can accept a sword hilt style which was established so distinctly that its form became incorporated into a religious icon and so much so that it remained unchanged for 1000 years. As we know over time styles and decoration on everything changes in most cases, even in degree with traditional items particularly in religious context, but even such symbolic instances change no matter how subtly.
We are also well aware of 'revival' styles in weaponry and atavistic application in many forms. The swords rehilted in Istanbul in the 16th century are presumed to reflect early styles of the most revered periods in early Islam.

We then consider the evolution of the cylindrical hilt which if I understand correctly developed around the 18th century and seems oriented primarily in coastal regions of Muscat. The Sultanate of Oman extended across Strait of Hormuz to Iran, regions now Pakistan (Baluchistan) and to the Zanzibar regions of SE Africa. While Portugal controlled many of these regions prior to 1650, to believe that they did not bring in European blades would not seem possible. The Omani not only were industrious merchants but maintained powerful naval control in the gulf. Ras al Khaimah had been a wealthy port since the 7th century, and trade with India and Africa extant throughout early times well into 18th century.
German blades became well established in India, North Africa, throughout Europe, the Caucusus and many regions worldwide, and by the 18th century virtually dominated most trade networks as far as that commodity. To think that Oman, one of the most powerful trade networks in many of these, would be impervious to the use of these blades is another suggestion I cannot accept.

I would point out also that the 'running wolf' mark had become so far from its origins in Passau as generally held by the late 16th century that it was used 'interpretively' by many blademaking centers, and adopted into native cultures application through later years. Its actual use in Solingen and Italy had waned by the latter 17th century, and ceased being used by then. The exceptions were use in England by Shotley Bridge makers, and the mid 18th century use by Samuel Harvey (with his initials). In the Caucusus the Chechen makers began using the marking in about the 18th century as the 'ters maymal'. At some point other native blade makers began copying the mark in North Africa as well. Much as with the well known dual crescent moons, these marks were intended to imbue magic into the blade, and seem to have been applied to that end. While price may be construed as a motive, the talismanic appeal is more than the quality/price allusion in my thinking.
These often indiscernable 'quadrapeds' are therefore essentially all interpretations of a stylized symbol whose application was never intended to be deceptive but to recall a long standing tradition in blades, from Europe into a number of other cultures.

I just wanted to reassert my views at this point and to reaffirm my understandings of this most fascinating discussion on the kattara/sayf.

Salaams Jim~ Thank you for your time and effort researching and ploughing through my posts... I hope this one finds you well on Route 66 . Your reply is, as ever, absolutely excellent.

"The straight sword is The Sayf/ The curved sword is Kattara".


I surround myself with antique maps of the region and a backdrop of 20 or 30 swords, daggers and old muskets in the hope of gleaning some support and inspiration so with a cup of Arabic coffee I set down my defence.. though of course bearing in mind that thanks to you and Iain and others this has become a Forum epic and hopefully an example as you say of cooperation in cracking this difficult problem.

As a preamble I just want to clarify that the ornate Sayf hilt was generated at about the same time as the Al Bu Saaiid dynasty started and in parallel with or shortly after the design of the Royal Khanjar; seen at my thread of that name. It can be seen on the drawing of Sultan Bargash much later in the late 19th C at # 25 just before he was deposed at Zanzibar by the British and exiled to St. Helena. The fancy design appears to follow and cover the old design (interestingly not replacing it) with added filigree etc etc. Therein is a clue to the long lasting and honorific nature of the beast.

The Omani Sayf.

Certainly no one has been able to pinpoint a 751AD Sayf therefore we rely upon the similarities between the Abbasid (Military Museum Istanbul) and what we think is the Omani Sayf compared and as outlined in my early post # 5.The hilt with turned down quillons and the Islamic geometry on Pommel and handle constructed in the same way as the Abbasid and heralded through the Funoon "the unwritten form" a pageant of music song and dance enacted down the ages to which the only similarity that I can think of in Western style is Ring a Ring of Roses( the enactment of the Black Death plague that swept through Europe" or November the 5th Guy Fawks. (Parliamentary Gunpowder Plot) and the Devonish Furry Dance. The tradition of Funoon made more powerful by it being linked absolutely to the style of religion (and therefore learning, history, psyche and all in Oman from 751 AD. The sword dance is a section on its own specific firstly to the Parade(Razha) and secondly the mimic fighting with 2 opponents (alyaalha). I wish that someone had written a book at the time about this performance describing the Terrs and Shield being used… but that was the point of the tradition…The unwritten form. It was enacted not just once or twice but every year at both religious festivals(Eid) the equivalent importance to Western Christmas and Easter and at every wedding and big public event "ad in finitum" until today. The sword used with the Terrs buckler shield was the Old Omani Battle Sayf… The "Sayf wa Terrs"

Your note quote "The swords rehilted in Istanbul in the 16th century are presumed to reflect early styles of the most revered periods in early Islam." unquote Scholars tend to tread lightly on this note and I agree that it is tenuous… especially when trying to decide on the style of the Sword of the Prophet and when those were actually produced whether original around 630 AD or later honorific productions. Good examples of early blade form at The Military Museum Istanbul at ….Military Museum Pictures by Erlikhan #11 bottom two photos which compare well with the early Omani Sayf in eleven categories. This sword came to the Othmanlis via The Mamluke and hence the Abbasids(in Oman in the 8th C.) who probably took it from the Greek form.

As you point out quote ~ "in virtually all cases as seen by the swords in Yucel, early blades survive but the mounts are almost always newer". Unquote: emphasis in Omans case on "almost always".

People perceive Oman then as an open book however it was not at all open despite the illusion that Muscat and Sohar were burgeoning with international trade and freedom of ideas and thought… Oman was a peculiar half open half shut (at best) environment essentially split in half lengthways with a coastal belt and an interior often at war with each other and with 2 capitals. It was more or less, on and off, 2 different countries for hundreds of years. Before 1970 it was like stepping back 1000 years or more..They still used abu futtila …Slavery only 10 or 15 years before that was "normal routine." There were no roads, hospitals, clinics, proper doctors, nurses or schools…There was no electricity or piped water. The entire place in western terms was like somewhere totally mediaeval Arabia.
It had been that way for centuries.
Against that backdrop I urge you to consider the remoteness of Oman and within that the reluctance for changing something that worked pretty well and as Antony North points out in his Islamic Arms publication how weapons froze for incredibly long periods and in this case since with the old Sayf I believe from 751 AD to the 18th C and on through the 19th and early 20th !

The second and important reason for swallowing that theory is because of the link to the Ibathi style and linking this to my earlier paragraph on the Funoon Tradition. This after all was the weapon(with terrs) that freed Oman and heralded in the new religion. It was therefore heraldic by definition though the publication on Heraldic Symbols insist on marked shields (or flags) as the only way to show this. I argue that in the same way the cross formed by the western knights swords were both defensive and religious by definition so too is the heraldic nature of the hilt of the Old Omani Sayf. Islamic shaped pommel and octagonal grip with turned down quillons.
In essence it was not only traditional but heraldic thereby doubly frozen into the Omani system and psyche.

Treatise with everyone. Oman was expert at playing both ends off against the middle especially with the French and British. The situation for placing a political and trade envoy into Muscat was a hilarious helter skelter of yes you can no you can't with both sides (French and British) unable to do so until the turn of the 20th Century! This was complicated not least by the Napoleonic wars and the situation of British controlled India and the sub ownership of Zanzibar up to its subsequent break up in the late 19th C. This was the period leading through the Great Game involving Afghanistan Persia et al. Oman played a game of see saw with all interested parties and all were frustrated until very late in the proceedings. For a bewildering walk through of events read Dr. Sheikh Sultan bin Qasimi "The French and British in the Indian Ocean" during those three centuries 17, 18 and 19. In those days this letter would take a month to get to Bombay India, Bushire or Zanzibar and two months to return so that events superceded letter content and everything changed all the time thereby outdating decisions taken by both sides in a ridiculous timetable of blundering inefficiency.

Your well made points on trade blades are agreed as therein lies the puzzle.

The Portuguese. The evolution of the cylindrical hilt. Caucas Blades.

The Portuguese entered the Indian Ocean in late 15th C in search of Slaves Gold Silver and Mercenaries. Unable to find the fabled land of Prester John they eventually recruited Indian fighters with Indian weapons to do their bidding. Their style of political and religious fervor at the time led to atrocities up and down the length and breadth of the Indian ocean and in Oman they sacked Sohar with the same vigour. For whatever reasons they hated Muslims and to consider why Oman did not adopt Portuguese weapons that should rank highly. ( plus their Indian mercenaries used a lot of Indian weapons) I have had a few examples of Portuguese swords in the rapier style from that period now given to friends and I await their pictures but they are typical Portuguese with script down the blades belonging to Count such and such etc also seen in museums here but not the Omani type at all… totally different. The Portuguese legacy in Oman is in the Portuguese built fortresses Mirani, Jelali and Sohar Forts in architecture but not in bladed weapons.

The reasons why are probably threefold..viz;
1. The Omanis hated them.
2. The weapons were not to their style and either too complicated or in fact Indian.
3. They already had a weapon system so why fix it if it wasn’t broke?

As a glaring example of Omani indifference to foreign styles they had been doing business and trade with India for centuries. Earlier, Sohar, was the biggest port on the planet. Whilst style of dress jewellery and architecture was influenced by India on the coast nothing permeated the interior and no weapons of Indian extraction (except gunpowder weapons) entered the equation. The Omanis had been staring at Indian blades for centuries much longer than any other system… Omanis even settled in Goa and on the Malibar coast and Indian people on the Oman coast. There are, however, no blade influences except the other way round ie Khanjar Omani to Khanjar Indian. Oman did via the design of the Royal Khanjar adopt an Indian style hilt over an Omani one… nothing else.

The Shotley Bridge Swords. Thank you for pointing out the SH mark with the Running Fox… Whilst the link with the Solingen or Passau Woolf is not lost on me the animal is different ~ Fox form as opposed to Woolf. At the same time I agree that Woolf marks on a blade would be construed as Talismanic i.e. protecting the user from the evil rabid Woolf which roamed here but in so being put on a blade that automatically pushed a little more quality therefore value onto the price.

The evolution of the cylindrical hilt. Actually a flat cylindrical form, which, if dissected has a cuff, a grip and a pommel. The shape is arched. It often has a hole for a wrist strap in the pommel. No Quillons. It has all the attributes of the former hilt except quillons… and the obvious difference to long shape needed for a long blade.

Quote "We then consider the evolution of the cylindrical hilt which if I understand correctly developed around the 18th century and seems oriented primarily in coastal regions of Muscat" Unquote.

I can find no reason why it was developed in Muscat as opposed to say the interior at Nizwa. Nizwa was the seat of Ibathi teachings therefore would it not be at Ibathi central where a new system developed? Where Muscat was concerned it is plausible that ship styled weapons in the long and shorter curved variety influenced Omani weaponry such as the Persian Shamshir and the Zanzibar variant or curved swords that somehow all became called Kattara in Oman. The long curved Kattara has the identical hilt to the Long Sayf.. Did they appear at the same time? We seem to assume the straight came first and the hilt transferred to the curved as it entered use...Maybe.

Caucaz blades I agree on all things including their appearance on Red Sea, Zanzibar and Yemen variants and used on the Oman coast on dhows etc. I don’t know if they affect the straight Omani Sayf.. not in my opinion.

In conclusion I suggest that the Short Omani Battle Sword Sayf eminates from the 751AD date as noted but that the changeover to the Long Flexible Sayf though not yet proven is perhaps as outlined below and at #208;

The hypothesis looks a bit like this ~ Oman had an old battle sword but in about the 18thC another sword style caught their attention; perhaps the Mamluke derivative coming down the Red Sea used in Yemen (Omans southern neighbour and or Algeria and Saudia etc)~Perhaps the Old Sword had outlived its purpose and became redundant because no one could make them anymore or gunpowder had made them redundant. Thus it entered the arena and was modified for flexibility and lightness and given the long hilt treatment.

The question as to a European Trade Blade import or influence on the flexible long Sayf is still unknown.
The fact regarding the local name for the old Sayf as Sayf Yamani gnaws away in the background..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Iain and as we have all agreed here, this is a fact finding mission to discover more on these swords of Oman....and I've still bveen at it, second day now going through all this stuff!!

I think I have another angle on why German blades (which seem to be the prevalent denomination) would have likely been widely used in various times.

Looking into "The Armies of the Caliphs" (Hugh Kennedy, 2001, p.173-175), there are some interesting references from the "al Suyuf wa Ajnasiha" (Swords and Thier Kinds, Ishaq al Kindi c.870AD). Al Kindi was commissioned by the Abbasid caliph Mu'tasim to complete this study.
These notes coupled with those of Friedrich Schwarzlose (Leipzig, 1888) who extracted sword terms etc. from early Arabian poetry, give some interesting insight into swords in Arabic tradition.

Many of the swords are called by names which reflect where they were produced such as Qala'i (believed Central Arabia but could be Iraq) ; Diyafi, from Iraq; Baylamani (from Yemen, possibly India); Mushrafi (Yemen or Syria).
Kennedy notes that the uncertainty of locations suggests these may have been terms for sword types rather than locations.
What is key here is that Yemen keeps predominating, and while it has been suggested that that name is colloquially applied to relatively vast area, I think it is more specific in this parlance and refers to southern Arabia.
Schwarzlose notes that swords from India were best, followed by those from Yemen made in Indian fashion "muhanned").
The references go further to say that the best swords were made in Yemen or Khurasan with lesser qualities from Kufa, Basra and at the lowest, Egypt.
It then notes Frankish (franjiya) swords but does not specify if imported or by type.

It is known that Frankish swords were exported into Andalusian Spain, but unclear whether to Arabia.

While these references are of course from the 9th century along with the Schwarzlose references which may include varying periods, the key point is that Yemen appears to have held high station in the sword production status.
Kennedy (op.cit.) notes that the most expensive swords were Yemeni, and that soldiers of the Abbasid period could easily afford Egyptian swords but that a Yemeni sword could cost up to 10 months salary. How long this esteemed reputation prevailed is hard to say, and clearly there was great variation in affordability for swords which likely continued on for centuries and following established traditions. It is noted in earlier discussions here that Yemen was a source for swords into Oman in more recent times as well, but there was another factor which may have presented more affordable blades some time before that...trade blades, mostly from Germany.
Elgood notes (p.16) that of the favored straight blades many good Genoese and Solingen blades from 16th century onward were exported to the Arab lands and India. He does note that the locally produced blades tended to be lighter in weight and the fullers more crudely drawn. This of course does favor notes by Ibrahiim toward the Omani blades over trade blades, in the case of the swords intended for the Razha. I believe that much as there are court and dress swords as opposed to combat swords, not all sayf/kattara were intended to perform Razha in the Funoon, and many were intended for regular wear.

Here I would note that not all Omani sayf/kattara must be in accord with the swords intended for the Razha, and Burton (1884) notes on these cylindrical hilted style broadswords "...is the usual shape worn by Arab gentlemen". This was observed by him in his visit to Zanzibar around 1858, and these swords are noted and illustrated in Demmin (1877) as well as Zanzibari. Burton goes on to say that these swords were for show, and quite unwieldy (he was of course a bit curmudgeonly and elitist as far as swordsmanship). I would imagine that the examples in Zanzibar carried even more of the trade blades from African sources from the Red Sea trade. Many of these blades also of course entered Yemen through Aden, and into the Hadhramaut as well as by sea back to Muscat.

I would imagine that the higher end blades were to ranking individuals, tribal leaders and wealthy merchants while trade blades were seen among the more plebian swords and rank and file. As local copying became more prevalent the marks long established among imported blades of earlier times were likely added as status or quality symbols for marketing as suggested.

The swords and heirloom blades of esteemed or high ranking individuals tend to be preserved, while lower every day weapons often do not fare as well. Most have already as mentioned earlier, gone into other contexts and are notably hard to find in our times, thus lacking as evidence to the earlier presence of these types of trade blades.

Salaams Jim~ My last post ended on the note about the local name Sayf Yamani for the old stiff bladed Omani Sword and it may be that the Yemen hold clue to its manufacture or as you point out and we have seen before people pointing generally at Southern Arabia but actually meaning
part of Oman, Yemen and the Horn of Africa as one place. The Yemen were indeed famous for blade making and I consider that as a likely contender for early Sayf. Iraq for the same reasons.

I am not a great fan of Burton and I can show photos and sketches several Zanzibari dignatories in the 19th C wearing variously straight Sayf Yamani, Curved Kattara Omani, Shamshir also called Kattara and the Zanzibari Nimcha and or the Omani Khanjar.

The rest I need to look at in more detail ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding responses Ibrahiim, and it really is great to be expressing our ideas and perceptions not especially as debate, but establishing opinions on compiled material at hand. Naturally concerning matters regarding the specific history of Oman and its environs your command is understandably profound, and my interpretations are cursory as I am pretty much learning most of it as I go along. Most of my interest in the history of swords has always been primarily markings and symbolism, as well as understanding more on forms as they developed. Clearly we are focused on both here, so it becomes more fascinating as we move forward.

I understand what you mean on the heraldic type tradition with the old sayf, and am trying to get used to using these terms according to the parlance you are establishing here.....its hard though as of course the kattara term is so firmly emplaced from the many years of referencing these. In most cases with study of ethnographic weapons the semantics of terms in referring to various forms becomes maddening, and as once well described by Lee Jones, typically applied generally to sword, not otherwise specified. The sabre in Morocco usually termed 'nimcha' is more properly termed Moroccan sa'if...in India the Indo-Persian sabre with disc pommel is termed tulwar, but then so are Persian shamshirs in the Mughal courts. In the Sudan, we have called the broadsword the kaskara, but there it is simply known as sa'if. There are so many other instances of disparity in application of these terms for specific forms of weapons that it is almost futile to try to resolve effectively. I am pretty sure we could write a book on the instances of variations on edged weapon nomenclature and classification alone.

Returning to the tradition of the old sayf remaining in situ for literally a thousand years, in essence I understand what you mean, but agreed we have no certain idea what the 751AD sword actually looked like. It is agreed that most of the swords extant in Istanbul were probably rehilted, and again we agree 'probably' most, but still none have the hilt style of these old Omani sayf. I do know what Anthony North meant though, and it is true that very old weapon styles did remain present over long periods, but I think much of this is due to atavistic and revival type situations recalling old traditions, much in the heraldic sense you describe.
In the late 18th and through the 19th century, French military weapons brought forth many neo-classic designs and many were from old Roman sword types from ancient times. These forms transmitted into American examples and into the civilian sector with fraternal groups and Masonic organizations.

The biggest problem in studying various ethnographic weapon forms in trying to establish reliable continuum chronologically showing thier evolution and development. Many forms familiar to us such as the kastane of Sri Lanka; flyssa of Algeria; the so called 'Black Sea yataghan' ; and numerous others are late comers, some of which can only be traced to early 19th century, thier seemingly ancient style association compellingly connected, but with no linear progression to support those origins.

There really does not seem to be any particular reason to presume that the cylindrical hilt evolved in Muscat over the interior regions, and there does not seem to be any particular tradition for guardless swords in either. Clearly your perspective on the sword and buckler concept is well placed as these type swords were light and fast, and any guard or parry was to the buckler. I believe if I recall that it is established that both of these hilt forms existed concurrently though of course the cylindrical type came in around late 17th or 18th century. The silver sheathing embellishment seems to typically be absent on examples of the old sayf which appear, and less common but does exist on the cylinder hilt type.

I believe that the flexible blade was key to the cylindrical hilt form used for the sword dance, but that it was not essential to all of these type sayf. Much of the presence of these was toward the fashion in wear, and I believe that these were worn as key accoutrements of status by influential individuals. Case in point are the curved blade types which are seen in todays Omani emblem along with the distinctive khanjhar, also a key element of fashion and status. Again, this is simply my own perception at this point based on what I have understood from material I have researched.

Good points on the sayf Yemeni and agree that that classification term while typically suggesting where the sword was made (per Kennedy, op.cit.) may equally simply mean, where it is from. As we have discussed, trade blades, primarily German were coming into Yemen regions in the 19th century, and probably in some degree earlier via other trade connections. It seems to me that most European blades had a good degree of flexibility, though I am not certain they reached the degree of flexibility of the halab blades. It would seem that there would be a degree of selection as far as the blade used, and that those intended for these sword dances were not necessarily those which may have carried heavier straight or curved blades. If I understand correctly the curved swords are not used in the sword dance.

Your note on the Zanzibar 'nimcha' brought back memories. These are actually as I understand also termed sa'if and are typically like the Moroccan hilts with similar quillon system except they have a vertical counterguard ring. When I first acquired one of these many years ago it was one of a number acquired in Yemen. I had been researching the curious H type hilt sword Burton and Demmin (1884 and 1877 respectively) show next to the Omani cylinder hilt, and describe it as 'the other type Zanzibar sword'. I was subsequently able to show that that particular type, through references with Buttin, was actually a Moroccan s'boula and had been taken by these authors to have been Zanzibari. Clearly another situation of trade route diffusion reflecting the contact between these diverse regions through trade entrepots across vast distances.

Returning to the old sayf type, by analogy I would note the Indian khanda, often termed 'firangi' if it is with European or 'foreign' blade. These came from a relatively ancient sword style which is seen iconographically on ancient friezes in temples. It is important to note that these swords are very much revered in the Hindu religion , and by form these venerated swords are very much a part of religious ceremony in many cases. These also often have certain elements of thier structure reflecting architectural and sacred shapes and designs of the temples along with deep meanings imbued in the weapon itself.
Rather than remaining entirely static in design, these evolved into what has become known as the Hindu basket hilt, in which the basic structure remains but in more developed form. While suggested that European hilt forms led to this development, it appears to me that it was more a gradual developmnent of the basic form. As with many traditional ethnographic sword forms, thy remain essentially the same, but with often extremely subtle nuances which can help in establishing the date or period they are from.

Obviously this analogy does not necessarily prove anything toward the discussion on the old sayf as far as whether they remained the same from the beginning presumed at around 751 until the18th century, but I thought worthy of note as an interesting parallel.

As always, I am very much enjoying our discussion, and the in depth look into the history surrounding these weapons. Thank you so much, and look forward to progressing onward.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Great points. Thank you for delving into the reference books.

I would like to address the subjects Terminology, National Emblem, Dancing Swords and Curved Kattara. Please be advised that this post carries a bombshell suggestion (or two) on the entire subject...

Terminology. Sayf is the old Arabic word for Sword. Kattara came on a few hundred years ago say in 1750 from who knows where? It is not an Arabic word. This raises the question that before 1750 what did they call such curved swords present in Oman like Shamshir etc ? The answer is they called all swords Sayf !

Where did the word Kattara come from? It occured to me that there are a number of swords that sound very like Kattara such as Kastana, Kaskara or Katana. Taking the most likely line of influence African influence rather seems possible. The outsider from Japan though it is a massive distance gets on the radar screen because of the shape of the hilt. Although Omanis showed the Portuguese the sea route to China I have up to now not looked to that region for influence and on comparing handle construction there are many differences not to mention no Tsuba on the Omani Hilt. I therefore only mention it on passing.

What is odd is the appearance of the long hilt on both Sayf and Kattara at around the same time and I ask the question which came first and why?

National Flag. The fact that the two crossed curved Kattara appears on the national flag may indicate its priority.

Dancing Swords. We speak about the Long Flexible Sayf but it burns a hole in my research regarding its fighting prowess. My own style of Martial Art is Kyokushinkai though to mix it up a little I trained with Japanese and Chinese weapons for a few years. I have to say I have never rated the long flexible Omani Sayf though I have seen demonstrations of it slicing through various products (that weren't fighting back!) but only with the sweet part of the blade not the end section. I can not find a single event in history which the weapon was used in a fight skirmish or war. There are good reasons for this... one in particular... because it's not a fighting sword. It's a dancing sword.

As a pageant only sword it explains why we have been tilting at windmills and may be why the European Trade Blade is entirely spurious. It may also go someway to explain why the dancing sword was never made in exotic steel with wootz in Oman although I know there are one or two around probably special commissions out of India.

For this reason I support the appearance of the curved Kattara first perhaps around 1750 but not displacing the short battle sword at all. The Short Omani Sayf remained as the weapon of war (this is a formidable chop, hack, slash and stabbing short sword) though because of gunpowder weapons its eventual decline was assured. We were right to consider the two swords being used over a few hundred years, but I reason, one is the fighting stiff sayf while other flexible sayf is for displays and dancing only. The use of the same shield is purely convenience.

The take off of the long hilt onto the Funoon dancing sword was therefore entirely natural. The Kattara curved single edged weapon, on the other hand, is a real killer and in fact is more the "chop chop" executioner weapon and worn more as a badge of office whereas in fact the flexible dancing Sayf is not ...

The flexible dancing Sayf never attained the Iconic status of the Old Sayf, The Kattara, The Shamshir or the Zanzibar Nimcha though it was the dancing sword and is still in the Funoon. Before the advent of the flexible Sayf the old Battle sword was used (though more cumbersome) in the traditional Funoon (as in fact was the Khanjar though the later in Salalah).

I see the transition from Africa possibly through the slave trade of the Kattara curved style. I can see how curved trade blades have been re-hilted onto curved Kattara.

The Omani Flexible Dancing Sword (Sayf) is not a weapon per se. and never was: The European Trade link to this sword has thus collapsed. shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

After Note; Pictures 1, 2; Showing below a possible transition of hilt form with influence from Red Sea / Yemen weapons on the eventual transformation of the Flexible Omani Dancing Sayf and in aproximate parallel timewise with the Curved Kattara design.

Picture 3, 4; Some different designs of Curved Kattara (there are others)

[A.alnakkas]

Hello All,

Ibrahim, I have done some research regarding the term "Kattara كتارة" and it seems to be a term more focused on the shuhooh tribe? As you said, it seems to refer only to the curved Omani saber but the name "kattara" was also used as a person name; For example, the tribe of Ibn Kattarah (I need to research this tribe)

The term as you said, does not seem Arabic so its rather interesting!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello All,

Ibrahim, I have done some research regarding the term "Kattara كتارة" and it seems to be a term more focused on the shuhooh tribe? As you said, it seems to refer only to the curved Omani saber but the name "kattara" was also used as a person name; For example, the tribe of Ibn Kattarah (I need to research this tribe)

The term as you said, does not seem Arabic so its rather interesting!

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think that is interesting and the name Sayf also is a persons name. The Shihu are a very interesting tribe and their main family group is called Shehe. They give the name to a short knife that tucks in the belt and used in other closeby Omani areas (in much of Northern Oman) behind the Khanjar though technically they don't wear tha Khanjar prefering the Jers axe instead. They straddle the Oman UAE border and appear linked originally to a Persian tribe... as is the axe (Luristani linked as I see it) Today the straight Sayf flexible dancing sword is made there and in other centres like Nizwa.

I was reviewing the vast load of material already generated and looking for various links when I suddenly realised that the Long Flexible Sayf was in fact not a weapon as such but "a dancing sword."
What various dignatories visiting the region in the 1800s meant when for example they referred to ~Scotish Claymore style of weapon at Hormuz ...and in other parts of Oman ~ 2 handed weapons... capable of chopping off a limb...3 feet long swords etc is the Old Sayf often in the area of 2feet 6inches and 2 feet 8inches. The dancing sword is nearly 4 feet long. The hitting/cutting power of the old weapon is far superior as its heavy thick wing shaped and razor sharp blade would slice through much more efficiently. Then I got into a lot of conversation with old gentlemen and realised that though nothing was written down the flexible sword was simply a dancing sword. It is important all the same but now I can see where it slides into the overall plan... and why it has no European Trade Blade link at all.

The curved Kattara of course is totally different.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent summation Ibrahiim!!! I think you have put that together spot on, and I think this is basically the best solution to the kattara/sayf conundrum thus far. Naturally other fine points will be added, but this seems to plausibly describe this grouping of sword types as contemporarily used and with varying application.
On the kattara term, though it is a reach, in the northern parts of India and Afghanistan there is a type of dagger used by Kalash tribes usually in Chitral and of course this diffused widely.....it was called a 'katara' which seems to be another term in various linguistic parlance used for daggers and swords interchangeably. Remember that in these regions particularly it is often hard to define exactly where 'sword' category ends and dagger or knife begins...the 'khyber knife' for example is a huge butcher knife the size of a sword (also termed Salawar yataghan though it has nothing to do with the traditionally specified yataghan).
Also, the term katar for the well known transverse bar daggers seems to derive from a Hindu word for 'cut'. Perhaps these terms may have entered Arab parlance via Omani presence in Baluchistan and Indian trade ?

Outstanding work here guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely excellent summation Ibrahiim!!! I think you have put that together spot on, and I think this is basically the best solution to the kattara/sayf conundrum thus far. Naturally other fine points will be added, but this seems to plausibly describe this grouping of sword types as contemporarily used and with varying application.
On the kattara term, though it is a reach, in the northern parts of India and Afghanistan there is a type of dagger used by Kalash tribes usually in Chitral and of course this diffused widely.....it was called a 'katara' which seems to be another term in various linguistic parlance used for daggers and swords interchangeably. Remember that in these regions particularly it is often hard to define exactly where 'sword' category ends and dagger or knife begins...the 'khyber knife' for example is a huge butcher knife the size of a sword (also termed Salawar yataghan though it has nothing to do with the traditionally specified yataghan).
Also, the term katar for the well known transverse bar daggers seems to derive from a Hindu word for 'cut'. Perhaps these terms may have entered Arab parlance via Omani presence in Baluchistan and Indian trade ?

Outstanding work here guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Great reply. Great support. Thanks for your confirmation so far. I hope people can understand the vagueness that decends upon anything virtually before 1970 here... It is like entering a Mediaeval tunnel. Myth, superstition and unsubatantiated information fog the screen. I agree that we appear to be on the button with the dancing sword. I am also convinced about the Old Battle Sayf.

Regarding the curved Kattara. I agree that it could be a bastardised foreign word even from the English "cutter" or the Hindi "Katar" or qudurrah or from the Sri Lankan "kastane" or more than likely since I see a link with the Zanzibar hub and slavery off the African sword group (Kaskara?). As lofty points out there is also the possibility via a name in the Shuhooh tribe which is similar; so the book is open on that.

What I find interesting is that the Forum gave this particular tree a really good shake and eventually the facts have popped out. We even started off with the wrong terminology and corrected that in mid stream! Before this the entire world of swords was in my opinion "totally in the dark" over this important issue of the dancing sword and way out of timescale on the Old Omani Battle Sword and its important significance.
What is amazing is that the same weapon designed in or before 751 AD not only lasted up to the arrival of the dancing sword and curved Kattara but beyond that into the 20th Century though by then attaining an Iconic status (and gradually overtaken by the advent of firearms) but still the primary fighting blade of Oman for more than 1,200 years.
This BATTLESWORD weapon was a virtual heraldic symbol to the original Omani Ibathi religious style and has attained honorific Iconic proportions having been modified over the hilt in the decorative style of the Royal Khanjar for the al bu Saiid Dynasty.

The Old Omani Battlesword "Sayf" and its shield "Terrs" are classic living examples of weapon freeze.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Michael Blalock ~ Please SEE #6 on Ricks "Maker Mark ID" upon which I have commented on that thread.

Compare the Algerian Gun breach mark to your blade mark. Translated it appears to say Amal...(Acccording to Dom) and it looks very like the mark on your sword... All the letters are there stacked in almost identical stylised form. Thus the lid appears to be popped on origin of your Sword Mark... Algeria !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; I ask the question of the cross on the sword as being a short form of this mark.

Salaams Michael Blalock ~ I continue to work in the background upon this thread and noted that you had as yet not replied to the above which appears to solve the question pointing to Algeria as a probable stamp for both sword and gun marks; in a short, stacked form of arabic script. This is not to say that other countries did not use the same stamp format. It is however an indicator. I have not seen that "specific stamp" on Omani work. What this suggests is that your sword traversed the Red Sea and became formatted with a broad Omani Style but that its origins are elsewhere.
As a side issue I wonder if the very short form of this stamp is in fact a very simple cross placed by the owner rather than the maker?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks!
I got lucky, always wanted one of those, but they are usually very expensive:-)

Salaams Ariel,
On sweeping back through the thread I note you have a Old Omani Sayf and on checking I think it has a circular blade stamp... If this is the case can you kindly show it please? I believe there is a Nizwa stamp corresponding to this sword but I am not yet able to confirm. Two places seem to be at the front in the investigation: Yemen and Nizwa. In referring to Yemen the area of interest may be Hadramaut or even Salalah (in those days).

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think that is interesting and the name Sayf also is a persons name. The Shihu are a very interesting tribe and their main family group is called Shehe. They give the name to a short knife that tucks in the belt and used in other closeby Omani areas (in much of Northern Oman) behind the Khanjar though technically they don't wear tha Khanjar prefering the Jers axe instead. They straddle the Oman UAE border and appear linked originally to a Persian tribe... as is the axe (Luristani linked as I see it) Today the straight Sayf flexible dancing sword is made there and in other centres like Nizwa.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hey Ibrahim,

I disagree in linking alShuhuh to a persian origin. They are arabs who have been in arabia and in the region since before Islam. It is said that they are called alShuhuh (the greedy ones or the broke ones.) because during the reign of Caliph Abu Bakr (RA) they stopped paying the zakkat along with other tribes from that region and they were fought and chased to the mountains which they still reside.

One can get an understanding of this story (whether its authentic or not) by checking the meaning of the word Shuh in a dictionary :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Ibrahim,

I disagree in linking alShuhuh to a persian origin. They are arabs who have been in arabia and in the region since before Islam. It is said that they are called alShuhuh (the greedy ones or the broke ones.) because during the reign of Caliph Abu Bakr (RA) they stopped paying the zakkat along with other tribes from that region and they were fought and chased to the mountains which they still reside.

One can get an understanding of this story (whether its authentic or not) by checking the meaning of the word Shuh in a dictionary :-)

Salaams Lofty ~ Good point. Certainly they are pre Islamic and today they straddle the border of the UAE and OMAN. There is a total breakdown on the tribe somewhere and I will dig it up... There are a number of key families notably the Shehe ( I also note there are about 5 sects also underlining their sub tribal independence). They are fiercely independent even today. The small axe is very similar to the Luristani axe that it is tempting to draw a conclusion and their own linguistic form is I believe Farsi linked.

About Jerrs axes. The other almost same shaped axe appears with Bedouin in the Omani Wahiba sands region used as a camel stick and a weapon (and called a Quddum) though it is undecorated and on a shaft roughly hewn by the owner as opposed to the Mussandam style which is made by the axe maker complete. Are the two areas tribes previously linked?

Swords. So far as swords are concerned in the Shehu region they seem to have a late production of Omani Sayf only in the last 30 years or so... but that is largely heresay. I recall you indicating that the term Kattara was possibly from that area but I cannot find a link yet.

Work Knife. They also give their main family name to a small work dagger called a "shehe" and though they don't wear Khanjars up there as they favour the Jerrs axe ... they do carry this knife on a simple waistbelt whereas interestingly that knife has found its way as a work knife onto Khanjars in Northern Oman... though generally the preferred work knife is a silver worked antique English Butter Knife (Sheffield Steel ) or the German equivalent from Solingen.

I think it safer of me to describe this unusual group as probably originating from a group of Arab pre Islamic tribes possibly displaced by war, famine or other causes. The name is fascinating and further study is inviting.

On an historical note Richardson and Dorr in Volume 1 of their Craft Herritage of Oman describe the Jerrs Axe as almost identical to a bronze age axe from neighboring area tombs of Qidfa including the design patterns of herringbone, circles, dots and triangle motifs also paralleling designs on stone vessels at the site dated to the second half of the second milenium BC. Pottery also points to a link since it is proven that hand and wheel turning techniques have continued there in the Mussandam which originate in Messopotamia as early as 3000 B.C.etc.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams.. Following up the Shehe detail with Lofty I note that Bertram Thomas more or less linked the tribe with Yemen and the dialect is Kumzari which is an unwritten form. Slightly in contrast Wiki notes the similarity to Persian. I'm not certain if precise dating of the tribal blend can ever be achieved. Linguistics wise It is more likely to be geographical dialectic influence. I would however side with an Arab identity as this appears to be their main form.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~

Yesterday. Research took me into the Muscat Mutrah souk muddle; a sprawling mass of Omani artefacts set amongst the myriad of hundreds of stores interlinked with winding passageways in a step back in time... trade in there is seldom less than booming... and I was joined by several thousand tourists from a couple of cruise ships parked a few hundred metres away ~ See my thread on Souks of Oman.

There is only really one shop amongst hundreds of others that is worth scrutiny and I spent a few hours looking at heaps of stuff. What is obvious are the masses of Yemeni Jambiyya daggers; mostly cheap stuff. Plenty of Karabella and some half dozen Saudia swords with peculiar elongated hilts of the sort seen on thread.

I also stumbled upon a few other weapons of some note. One showed a date of 1708 followed by some undecipherable squigles. It appeared to be an Omani SAYF (dancing sword) Most peculiar ~ In a flash I could see my entire threads input lurching in a tail spin with flames accompanying !! This was indeed a puzzle and it was not until I was able to analyse the photos that it struck me by inverting the sword what it was. SOLI followed by a few squigles of which the first letter was N....An invisible finger tapped me on the shoulder at that point and whipered SOLINGEN stupid !

The blade not of the same material as a normal Omani Sayf ... The long hilt having been put on by the shop owner 10 years ago and he couldnt remember if it was a welded on Tang !! By pure chance the sword owner walked in... and by even purer chance I knew the lady from 15 years ago ~ A visitor to my shop here !! The sword had come back in for a clean up ///
No one had any idea what this was. Now I realise what it is

On the reverse is a strange set of capital letters that seem to read STAMM STAMM repeated twice on the blade commencing at the hilt though the first few letters of the first word are a bit unreadable. I assume it is STAMM. The meaning is unknown. The letters are identical in style with flared ends.

Before anyone faints I have to caution that this is the only one I have ever seen and that the hilt is probably modified on a Solingen blade of early manufacture since the style of alphabet is the old one with small flares at the end of each capital letter. The date is unknown. I would say 17th or 18th C. It may be a blade off the African side... not as broad as Omani sayf, culminating in a point and flexible but not so flexible as an Omani Sayf. One fuller.We are lucky in that I have identified the man who reworked the hilt and the owner who lives in Muscat... Lucky indeed.

So that forum can take a swing at this I have isolated this on one post and will present the other finds separately... it gets interesting..

PHOTOS
The sword being discussed in this post is at the top of the first picture. The other two swords and others will be discussed in another post.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all, Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.

SECOND SWORD

Odd for a few reasons...
1. Three Fullers.
2. Top rivvet hole filled whereas normally its empty and considered as the wrist strap hole. Filled, however, it cetainly gives a better supported hilt.
3. Squigles on the blade at the throat on one side only. If its letters I cannot decipher. Perhaps this is a running wolf insignia.

Right next door to Mutrah Souk is a fine example of an old archway similar to the design of the Hilt on Omani Battle Sword; Sayf. Pictured below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ This is where the wheel comes off the bike slightly !
THIRD SWORD.

Old Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.(half hilt missing) This sword raises a few questions viz;


1. European PDKG and asterisks ~An unknown Insignia on this blade.
2. Thin and narrow blade.

I would caution that this thinness and narrow aspect of blade is perhaps the only one like this I have seen. I have never before seen this insignia . It may be the missing link ie the so called 17th century european blade for the Old Omani Battle Sword. Note also that the capital letters appear as quite old gothic in style with flared ends as in the first sword at top of picture and in earlier post ( gothic revival ?) :cool
On research I note a few leads pointing to possible answers from Sotheby's -
1.A small-sword, late 18th century, with hollow-triangular blade etched and gilt with ... circa 1650, with slender double-edged blade, stamped 'Sahagon' within the ... cut with running wolf mark, the spurious date 1616, and the letters 'PDKG' on ...

2.An Indian sword (pata), 18th century, the letters 'PDKG' on ...etc etc

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David R]

... though generally the preferred work knife is a silver worked antique English Butter Knife (Sheffield Steel ) or the German equivalent from Solingen....Ibrahim al Balooshi sir, any chance of you posting a picture of one of these. I am fascinated by the idea of this sort of re use of a table knife..though given the quality of the steel of these old knives I am not too suprised.

[A.alnakkas]

Well hey Omani's turned out to like european blades eventually?:P

I like them, dont think they are european made personally but am no expert in the field. I think Omani's, like most Arabs, they have valued foreign blades and have imported + copied them. The pictures you add support that more then anything.

[A.alnakkas]

I think a balanced view is the best one. We cannot suggest that every single blade is native made nor can we suggest that every single fullered (and well made blade) is european. I think thats pointless to just place blades on such assumptions.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I think a balanced view is the best one. We cannot suggest that every single blade is native made nor can we suggest that every single fullered (and well made blade) is european. I think thats pointless to just place blades on such assumptions.

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Balance? I tell ya chasing this one down would unbalance most folks! Of the three swords however I am unphased since in the case of :

Number 1 ; I have identified the workshops that engineered the blade onto the Omani Hilt. They cant remember if it was welded but my bet is they did because in their collection and pictured by me is a welded blade that they admit to doing... The Ethiopian job awaiting an Omani hilt welded to extend the tang and include the Omani Pommel.

Number 2 ; The Old OMANI BATTLE SWORD. Not a problem there as it looks like a later model~ It originated in style about 1700 years ago but lasted til the early 20th C ... This sword is still being Iconized even now... we have one being dressed at this time including a new scabbard and silver furniture etc No doubt there are many versions of this weapon through the milenia but the style and origins to me seem clear.

Number 3 Sotheby have some research indicating the initials as India but that is open to examination ...The blade is weird.. I suspect Gothic revival .. I dont believe we need to worry too much about this one just yet though I would be delighted to discover that it is a European blade since I have searched for this based on rumour etc... It could be the 17th C replacement rumoured to have taken place. It is and was surely a pathetic blade and would be useless in a battle... I would rather have a wooden club ! It therefor appears as perhaps a one off ~ an Indian variant~ or a European replacement. It cannot have been that popular as Ive only seen this example. A freak even?

Therefor I am not able to conclude nor agree, in part, to your first paragraph though of course balance is vital; as is an open mind. Naturally if a blade is European I will declare that and where some new solidly based information crops up I will publish to forum...on that I have always been clear.

To date there is absolutely no concrete proof that European blades came onto the Omani scene to replace either the Old Battle Sayf or the flexible dancing blade Omani Sayf... save the crumb of detail and the outside chance that the sword shown at 3 above could be one exception.

The research goes on.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Well hey Omani's turned out to like european blades eventually?:P

I like them, dont think they are european made personally but am no expert in the field. I think Omani's, like most Arabs, they have valued foreign blades and have imported + copied them. The pictures you add support that more then anything.

Salaams A.alnakkas Ah well there you have it.

With the help of the Forum we have torn apart the myth on straight flexible Omani Sayf and rightly placed the Old Omani Battle Sayf into a corrected timeframe. The latter weapon regarded by many(with no proof) as variably 10th, 12th, 16th century with varying degrees of guess and error mixed. Some thought it Portuguese which would have placed it in the circa 1500 age bracket. No one had even heard of "The Funoon" . Ibn Jalanda... whos that? The Abbasids? Greek influence? Examples in the Topkapi Museum? Weapon freeze? Gradually the lid has been blown off...off that and the details about the straight flexible dancing sword "The Omani Sayf"... which has no European source whatsoever mainly because it isn't technically a fighting sword but a Religio-National Icon.

Oman did indeed also favour tasty curved swords and the Persian Shamshir, The Zanzibari Nimcha and the Karabela spring to mind where they are termed Kattara (though no one knows why?) in Oman.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all, Omani Battle Sword; Sayf.

SECOND SWORD

Odd for a few reasons...
1. Three Fullers.
2. Top rivvet hole filled whereas normally its empty and considered as the wrist strap hole. Filled, however, it cetainly gives a better supported hilt.
3. Squigles on the blade at the throat on one side only. If its letters I cannot decipher. Perhaps this is a running wolf insignia.

Right next door to Mutrah Souk is a fine example of an old archway similar to the design of the Hilt on Omani Battle Sword; Sayf. Pictured below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Fascinating example, unusual to see this form with fullers. The mark seems to be script to me rather than a running wolf or similar. I think this has quite some age to it.

A piece I would love to own.

[Jim McDougall]

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Most interesting developments here with the mystery of German blade presence in these Omani swords, whether original trade blades or examples copied by Omani artisans. First of all, the name STAMM was a well established sword blade producing family there, indeed even slightly earlier than the 17th century, the earliest being Clemens Stamm (1580-1610, listed in Bezdek p.154). Others were Peter (1680-1700, who used the marking depicting Jonah and the whale); Abraham (1764-1770); Wilhelm (1778-1820).
There is indeed a pata listed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", #217) with a blade by M.Stamm (captioned by Pant as Abraham Stamm, Solingen, 17th c.). It is well known that the Mahrattas heavily imported blades for thier swords in these times, highly favoring German blades over the British ones. German blades entered these areas by the thousands, presumably the source of the 'Alemani' term for swords carrying them (usually sabres).

While unclear whether the '1708' on this blade is indeed a date, or perhaps one of the many variations on so called magical numbers is hard to guage.
As indicated, the use of these mystical numbers such as the '1616' on the hollowed smallsword blade (clearly 18th century as per the form) and the name 'Sahagom' which was a 'brand' used by Solingen on blades headed for Continental markets, this could correspond to the 17th century attribution for Stamm. Whatever the case, and whichever Stamm might have been the maker, this is certainly a 17th century German blade.

The 'PDKG' is less attributable, and these kinds of four letter monograms are found in numerous variations. In the case of Hungarian sabres, typically made in Styria or Italy but of course Germany as well, the letters 'IPZD' are a recurring combination. It is often believed that these groupings which exceed the typical two letters presumably initials, may well be acrostics for phrases or slogans etc.
As your research has shown, the 'PDKG' has been found on other apparantly Solingen sourced blades of the 18th century, one to European markets and the other to India, which again, we know was receiving German blades in the 18th century, these combinations seem identifiable to Solingen.

As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as enrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century.

Excellent examples shown and outstanding research!!!! You really have this topic moving Ibrahiim, nicely done, thank you.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim... Brilliant detail and bringing on the STAMM info is just outstanding thanks... On the date I just need to clarify that it isnt a date ... it looked like one and the owner was adamant that it was ... indeed it looks like 1708 but when you invert it ... IT READS SOLI Then looking closely you will see a capital N and some more undepherible caps...following that... thus obviously SOLINGEN .

I have identified this shop as the hilt fixer on this old blade thus it is a blade coming in at a tangent and being reworked welded tang and pommel (Omanised)by this shop about 10 years ago according to them and the owner who I know coincidentally as a previous client in Buraimi.... and who walked in unexpectedly in Muscat which was amazing...

Your detail about the PDKG is also well received and I noted a london auction house which had other stamps the same... The stamp style of Gothic capitals seemed to point to German manufacture though I add that guardedly.

Your detail ;

Quote "As has been well supposed, German blades were well represented in Arabian regions as well as entrepots throughout these trade networks through the 17th and probably into 20th century".Unquote.

I still guard against since these are the only examples of these natures that I have seen in these formats. No others have cropped up. These are Omanised... as late as 10 years ago.

I therefore also guard against the supposition though look forward to upturning more evidence in the specific area of Old Omani Battle SAYF and Flexible Omani dancing SAYF trade blade replacements since actually we havent seen any yet.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Fascinating example, unusual to see this form with fullers. The mark seems to be script to me rather than a running wolf or similar. I think this has quite some age to it.

A piece I would love to own.

Salaams Iain~ Yes most odd... I suspect this has been played with by the storeowners workshop ~ He wouldnt admit that but he wouldnt deny it either !! The third hole to the hilt was cleverly filled making the hilt much firmer in the grip ... It ought to have been empty as this is considered as the wrist strap hole.
Onto the scribble on the blade... I see two pairs of legs and various squigles as is often the running wolf applied by anyone who cares to copy this simple motif. Ive seen it before on swords in this store. It isn't script.
Without taking the hilt apart and grilling the storeowners workshops I cannot speak volumes on what could be a cleverly matched mishmash. It simply goes in my diary as interesting. I would like to own it too !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David R

... though generally the preferred work knife is a silver worked antique English Butter Knife (Sheffield Steel ) or the German equivalent from Solingen....Ibrahim al Balooshi sir, any chance of you posting a picture of one of these. I am fascinated by the idea of this sort of re use of a table knife..though given the quality of the steel of these old knives I am not too suprised.

Salaams David R~ I have this on forum already see search type in butter knife see "are these shafras" and see # 5; my pictures include an Omani worked silver handled Sheffield butter knife.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi