Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords - Page 7

Matchlock · 17th November 2010, 09:12 AM

A good South German Korbdegen, ca. 1550, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos taken in 2004, copyright by the author.

m

Matchlock · 17th November 2010, 09:21 AM

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos 2004, copyright by the author.

m

Matchlock · 19th December 2010, 07:20 PM

From only recently recovered colored leaves.

Mostly from flickr.com, with thanks to the original posters there.

m

cornelistromp · 3rd January 2011, 07:05 PM

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

cornelistromp · 3rd January 2011, 07:07 PM

some more.

Matchlock · 3rd January 2011, 07:31 PM

Great, Cornelis,

Thank you so much!

I just ordered my copy of that publication.

Best,
Michael

Samik · 5th January 2011, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Thanks Michael for posting this beauty!

A bit of a silly question but would you happen to know if the piece was for use on foot (as in armored fighting) or for equestrian combat? Our hussar did carry similar pieces a decade or so later but with a shorter grip ( I do think the hilt on the stecher you posted is at least "hand-and-a-half" .. assuming my eyes are not decieving me

)

Cheers,
Samuel

Matchlock · 5th January 2011, 04:21 PM

Hi Samuel,

Exactly, this is a hand-and-a-half estoc and too long for foot combat. Estocs usually were equestrians weapons to thrust from horseback against foot soldiers.

Cheers, and best,
Michael

Matchlock · 27th March 2011, 02:15 PM

Ca. 1515, preserved in perfect patina all over.

Author's color photos.

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 05:32 PM

A knight with his Katzbalger, ca. 1510.

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

Hi Jasper,

I hope you don't mind my re-attaching better quality scans of these unusually fine items, together with the informative texts.

The first Katzbalger dates of ca. 1515-20, next there is a sample of ca. 1540 but please note that the blade is from a rapier of ca. 1590-1600.
The excavated find is a rare Katzbalger saber (I don't really think it should be called cutlass) of ca. 1535.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 05:50 PM

These two Landsknecht daggers in the Legermuseum range among the finest I have ever seen.

For the first I would suggest a date of almost exactly 1500, the other might be a decade or so younger.

Best,
m

Matchlock · 23rd July 2011, 07:10 PM

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

machinist · 25th July 2011, 12:30 AM

What a glorious twohander!
Running wolf and all!

Matchlock · 26th July 2011, 08:58 PM

And preserved in virtually 'untouched', heavily olive oil patinated condition as well!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 29th July 2011, 07:24 PM

Enjoy!

m

Matchlock · 29th July 2011, 07:26 PM

Please also see my threads

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14115

and

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht+hand+swords

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 29th July 2011, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

This is the best thread ever!

Thank you so much, Dmitry,
I have to admit I am sort of proud of it myself.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 29th July 2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I think this lot remained unsold, I had a look at it after the auction but did not 'like" it.

best,

Matchlock · 29th July 2011, 08:05 PM

Hi Jasper,

You're right, of course; it should read 'failed to sell'.
Apart from that: well, I dislike the leather on the grip but on the other hand, I wasn't there to handle it. So your knowledge on this is doubtlessly more profound than mine.

Thanks, and best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 29th July 2011, 09:49 PM

Hi Michael,

I've got a nice contribution of a grosses messer, a discovery found in the soil of Bavaria (your backyard?) "Dreieck" Hauzenstein, Liebergen und Haslach near the eastern way Regensburg - Nittenau.
With this knife is a belt hook with a Nuremberg mark and chape found.
the belt hook is very interesting because it has a system with a spring and a plate to fix the sword.
The condition has been excavated, but as single handed Messers are very rare, I'm happy with it.
remains of the original wooden handle and wooden Pflockniete (rivets) are available.

best from holland,

Matchlock · 30th July 2011, 04:49 PM

Hi Jasper,

Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations!

Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard

but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years.

It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images.

The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria.

What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons?
Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade?

Thanks a lot for sharing,
Michael

cornelistromp · 31st July 2011, 08:45 PM

Hi Michael,

well almost your backyard then.

all the parts are found together also the chape.
remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath.
also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate.

The measurements are:
the sword allover: 80,5 cm
the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm
blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides.
the crossguard: 22,5 cm
the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm

best,

Matchlock · 1st August 2011, 04:55 PM

Thank you so much again, Jasper!

This one is a really fine and well documented find!

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 1st August 2011, 09:52 PM

Thank you Michael,

Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail.

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.
probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight.

best,

mrwizard · 2nd August 2011, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

fernando · 2nd August 2011, 01:50 PM

BTW, Michl ... and others

.
Are you aware of this publication?
Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data.
Pity (for me) is written in german

.
... But the illustrations are universal, though

.

.

Matchlock · 2nd August 2011, 06:39 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference.

I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd August 2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Best,
Michael

mrwizard · 2nd August 2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the remarks about the 'source' of the weapons.
I didn't know (or even suspect) that it was questionable.

Regarding the intentions of the people whose website i linked to:
While i am aware that documenting weapons to build replicas as close to the
original as possible is problematic from a collectors perspective,
i am *very* sure these people won't sell fakes to anyone.

Best Regards,
Thilo

17th November 2010, 09:12 AM	#181
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A good South German Korbdegen, ca. 1550, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany. Photos taken in 2004, copyright by the author. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 17th November 2010 at 09:28 AM.

17th November 2010, 09:21 AM	#182
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany. Photos 2004, copyright by the author. m Attached Images

19th December 2010, 07:20 PM	#183
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Important 1530's Nürnberg Woodcut Sources - in Color! From only recently recovered colored leaves. Mostly from flickr.com, with thanks to the original posters there. m Attached Images

3rd January 2011, 07:05 PM	#184
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum. Attached Images

3rd January 2011, 07:07 PM	#185
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	some more. Attached Images

3rd January 2011, 07:31 PM	#186
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Great, Cornelis, Thank you so much! I just ordered my copy of that publication. Best, Michael

5th January 2011, 04:21 PM	#188
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Samuel, Exactly, this is a hand-and-a-half estoc and too long for foot combat. Estocs usually were equestrians weapons to thrust from horseback against foot soldiers. Cheers, and best, Michael

27th March 2011, 02:15 PM	#189
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Fine Katzbalger Sold for 16,500 USD at Sotheby's N.Y., January 12, 1991 Ca. 1515, preserved in perfect patina all over. Author's color photos. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th March 2011 at 03:54 PM.

30th March 2011, 05:32 PM	#190
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A knight with his Katzbalger, ca. 1510. Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 30th March 2011 at 05:53 PM.

30th March 2011, 05:50 PM	#192
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	These two Landsknecht daggers in the Legermuseum range among the finest I have ever seen. For the first I would suggest a date of almost exactly 1500, the other might be a decade or so younger. Best, m Attached Images

23rd July 2011, 07:10 PM	#193
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Fine Landsknecht German or Swiss Two Hand Sword, ca. 1540 Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description. Best, Michael Attached Images

25th July 2011, 12:30 AM	#194
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	What a glorious twohander! Running wolf and all!

26th July 2011, 08:58 PM	#195
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And preserved in virtually 'untouched', heavily olive oil patinated condition as well! Best, Michael

29th July 2011, 07:24 PM	#196
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An Irish Great Sword (two hand sword) of 1521, in a Drawing by Albrecht Dürer Enjoy! m Attached Images

29th July 2011, 07:26 PM	#197
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Please also see my threads http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14115 and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht+hand+swords Best, Michael

29th July 2011, 08:05 PM	#200
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jasper, You're right, of course; it should read 'failed to sell'. Apart from that: well, I dislike the leather on the grip but on the other hand, I wasn't there to handle it. So your knowledge on this is doubtlessly more profound than mine. Thanks, and best, Michael

29th July 2011, 09:49 PM	#201
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Michael, I've got a nice contribution of a grosses messer, a discovery found in the soil of Bavaria (your backyard?) "Dreieck" Hauzenstein, Liebergen und Haslach near the eastern way Regensburg - Nittenau. With this knife is a belt hook with a Nuremberg mark and chape found. the belt hook is very interesting because it has a system with a spring and a plate to fix the sword. The condition has been excavated, but as single handed Messers are very rare, I'm happy with it. remains of the original wooden handle and wooden Pflockniete (rivets) are available. best from holland, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th July 2011 at 10:05 PM.

30th July 2011, 04:49 PM	#202
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jasper, Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations! Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years. It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images. The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria. What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons? Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade? Thanks a lot for sharing, Michael

31st July 2011, 08:45 PM	#203
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Michael, well almost your backyard then. all the parts are found together also the chape. remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath. also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate. The measurements are: the sword allover: 80,5 cm the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides. the crossguard: 22,5 cm the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm best, Attached Images

1st August 2011, 04:55 PM	#204
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much again, Jasper! This one is a really fine and well documented find! Best, Michael

1st August 2011, 09:52 PM	#205
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Thank you Michael, Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail. BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use. The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use. probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight. best,

2nd August 2011, 01:50 PM	#207
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	BTW, Michl ... and others . Are you aware of this publication? Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data. Pity (for me) is written in german . ... But the illustrations are universal, though . . Attached Images

2nd August 2011, 06:39 PM	#208
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference. I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood. Best, Michael