When in India "died" wootz?

[estcrh]

Dagger with wootz steel blade by Zaqro Nonikashvili.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Dagger with wootz steel blade by Zaqro Nonikashvili.

Wootz is refferred as Bulat in Russian. I am not sure of definition of Bulat related to wootz, but in terms of clasical wootz - i'd not call this blade as such. I know some people would call wootz anything crucible. I am not going by process or components, but by visual pattern, and this is not wootz pattern to me.
Granted, some modern masters produce wootz blades, and of relatively decent pattern, but still lacking complexity and effect of old "twootz of legend".

[ariel]

Alex,
King Erekle saber is a modern product with blade by Nonikashvili.
The "shams-y" bulat is, of course, on par with Anosov's. Nothing to write home about.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

Alex,
King Erekle saber is a modern product with blade by Nonikashvili.
The "shams-y" bulat is, of course, on par with Anosov's. Nothing to write home about.

Ariel,
Is that closeup really of that "new" sword? I do not think so. I believe it is of old Persian blade on original saber or else. Also, how do we know the "new" blade is actually modern? Did he make several like this, or this is only one he made, or did he use old wootz blade, applied gold inscriptions and fittings and called: "I made it".

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Alex,
King Erekle saber is a modern product with blade by Nonikashvili.
The "shams-y" bulat is, of course, on par with Anosov's. Nothing to write home about.

Here is the new replica sword by Studio Gotscha, 2009 and the original, the question is whether the second close up image is of the reproduction or the original, to me it appears to be a detailed image of the original.

[Emanuel]

Have a read through what the fiery beards are saying on crucible steel :
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...howtopic=18364

And what I meant about the pattern visible in the cake, pre-forging out.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you for that outstanding synopsis bringing the essential theme topic back into the discussion. It has been an amazing discussion bringing together the many facets of this industry and the mysterious watered steel so sought after. It is amazing that even into our times there is research continuing.

I think that the focus on the Russian scientific and craftsmanship factors is most interesting and most likely the case because of the notable instances which pertain to the rediscovery of much of the wootz mystery. While obviously there are a good number of other areas involved, the work by Anosov in the research angles is of course key.

As with most industry and craftsmanship, there are likely to be many levels and degrees of quality and production. It is extremely interesting to see these pointed out in the observations and illustrations that continue being presented here.
Thank you!

[ariel]

I contacted Kirill Rivkin and asked him about Anosov's bulat. Kirill inspected Hermitage collection and many other collections of Anosov's blades and has first-hand knowledge.
Here is his e-mail:
__________________________________________________ ________
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:38 PM
To: Barkan, Ariel
Attachments:



Anosov claimed that he reproduced 11 different types of Bulat patterns;
the problem is that his definition of what each pattern means is very
different from what we tend to use today. For example, there is a sword in
Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by
many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even
wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah. During
Anosov's time the definition of wootz was very wide; he personally
included Japanese swords in this class, as well as many swords that were
classified in old Russian records as "red bulat" - but which today most
would not consider to be wootz. But even today people there are still
arguments, at the core of which is how separate are the terms "crucible
steel" and wootz. If we are to include some very basic crucible steel
patterns as wootz, then practically all Sheffield cutlery is wootz, it
just needs lots of acid, etc. If we are to concentrate of first class
Persian+ patterns from XVIIIth century as the "standard" of wootz, then it
is a much more narrow field.
Regarding the production of Zlatoust bulat, including those specifically
signed as Anosov's bulat, almost all was done in 1841-1845, i.e. a
relatively short time period. It is very low contrast (actually mechanical
damascus ones from the same period are much more showy), with relatively
short, straight lines (typically longer on higher quality swords, but
approaching "salt and pepper" on lower end stuff). Sometimes the lines are
curving a little. It is not that similar to what we would consider to be a
true Persian Taban today.

__________________________________________________ ______-

In view of this information obtained from a knowledgeable professional, quotations from Anosov's works as well as re-tellings of Anosov's testimonials by other people become highly questionable and cannot be relied upon.

Thus, actual documented examples of his "bulat" need to be seen by our own eyes.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Have a read through what the fiery beards are saying on crucible steel :
http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/inde...howtopic=18364

And what I meant about the pattern visible in the cake, pre-forging out.

Emanual, there does seem to be a pattern there, heres what appears to be the whole process from crucible to ingot to yatagan blade with a detail view of the pattern created.

"Indian methode" by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili.

[ariel]

Good example. His wootz patterns are unsurpassable.
Once again, it shows the importance of the forging process: minute and pretty "mechanical" dendrites of the ingot are transformed into a complex pattern easily comparable to the best Persian examples.

Obviously, Anosov lacked this ability.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

For example, there is a sword in Tsarskoe Selo collection which is signed "Amal Taban" which was held by many as the definition of Taban pattern. However, this blade is not even wootz; in fact most likely its a Georgian imitation of Assad Allah.

Ariel, thank you very much for the message from Kirill Rivkin. It is very interesting. Kirill has sent you a photo of the sword from the Hermitage? Or is he simply expressed his opinion?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

Good example. His wootz patterns are unsurpassable.

Ariel, what this opinion is based on?
As shown earlier in this post, some images of antique wootz were allegedly mixed in the context of modern production and associated with Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili. I think some are too quick to attribute them as produced by the person whose name appears next to the images. To me it is unclear what these close-ups refer to: a restored original blade, a sample of true wootz from another antique blade, or indeed a newly-made blade by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili.
The patterns Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili produced, at least what I saw thus far, are of Anosov-like, non-wootz type. Are there any viably convincing sample(s) of his work, besides random snaps of "some wootz", that show real modern wootz pattern produced by him?
How sure are you that the 2 yataghan blades and close-up of Kirk-narduban/ zig-zag pattern were forged by Dr. Zaqro Nonikashvili?

[ariel]

Alex,

The only info I have is how they are presented on his site.
If the best he could do was "Anosov-like" bulat, I will be disappointed. But there are some examples that are clearly a part of the overall story, from ingot to final product. If true, they are astonishing. I have no direct knowledge to doubt the veracity of his examples that are openly published and discussed by other individuals working with him.

BTW, how do you like Kirill's story of Anosov's bulat?

[ALEX]

Ariel,
I can tell you with certainty, that Kirk-Narduban/Zig-Zag pattern is not newly made. The image is of genuine antique wootz blade.
I also saw these images on Internet bearing Zaqro Nonikashvili name, for whatever reasons: comparison, showing objects of restoration, etc. The same goes for another wootz pattern shown on the same panel, "mistakenly" attributing it to Mr. Nonikashvili. He's very good and talented restorer, and some images of wootz blades he restored got mixed with the notion that he forged them.

As for King Erekle shamshir, I am not convinced that the blade is newly made. I believe the old wootz blade was used, polished and inlaid, and the rest was skillfully recreated. Perhaps someone can prove me wrong.

I liked Kirill's write-up about Anosov's bulat (and also his new book - an outstanding work!). Seeing some of Anosov's works personally, Kirill's thesis makes a great deal of sense and credibility, especially the differences of perceptions of wootz and its qualities of ours and Anosov's times, as well as realistic assessment of Anosov's patterns. Totally agree with everything Kirill said.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, thank you for that outstanding synopsis bringing the essential theme topic back into the discussion. It has been an amazing discussion bringing together the many facets of this industry and the mysterious watered steel so sought after. It is amazing that even into our times there is research continuing.

I think that the focus on the Russian scientific and craftsmanship factors is most interesting and most likely the case because of the notable instances which pertain to the rediscovery of much of the wootz mystery. While obviously there are a good number of other areas involved, the work by Anosov in the research angles is of course key.

As with most industry and craftsmanship, there are likely to be many levels and degrees of quality and production. It is extremely interesting to see these pointed out in the observations and illustrations that continue being presented here.
Thank you!

Salaams Jim. Thank you ...this has become one of the leading information sites with fine input from all and from my viewpoint purely as an observer I have learned volumes from its content. ...I discovered a great website with superb references at;

http://www.geostudio.pl/wordpress/?p=830

And a brilliant paper at file:///C:/Users/LENOVO/Downloads/102-103-1-PB%20(1).pdf

May I add...and this is not a complaint !! The thread comes in at master class level and leaves a lot of potential students somewhat in its wake...I therefor add a brief note on the background so that members can quickly get up to flying speed on this subject. Here is the rendition from Wikepedia which sets down some basic principles and groundwork viz;

Quote"Bulat is a type of steel alloy known in Russia from medieval times; regularly being mentioned in Russian legends as the material of choice for cold steel. The name булат is a Russian transliteration of the Persian word fulad, meaning steel. This type of steel was used by the armies of the nomadic people who were struggling to develop their smithing techniques. Bulat steel was the main type of steel used for swords in the armies of Genghis Khan, the great emperor of the Mongolian Empire. The technique used in making wootz steel has been lost for centuries and the bulat steel used today makes use of a more recently developed technique.

Contents
1 History
2 Structure
3 Bibliography
4 See also
History
The secret of bulat manufacturing was lost by the beginning of the 19th century. Pavel Anosov eventually managed to duplicate the qualities of that metal in 1838, when he completed ten years of study into the nature of Damascus steel swords. Bulat became popular in cannon manufacturing, until the Bessemer process was able to make the same quality steels for far less money.

Anosov had entered the Saint Petersburg Mine Cadet School in 1810, where a Damascus steel sword was stored in a display case. He became enchanted with the sword, and was filled with stories of them slashing through their European counterparts. In November 1817 he was sent to the factories of Zlatoust mining region in the southern Urals, where he was soon promoted to the inspector of the "weapon decoration department".

Here he again came into contact with Damascus steel of European origin (which was in fact pattern welded steel, and not at all similar), but quickly found that this steel was quite inferior to the original from the Middle East.

Anosov had been working with various quenching techniques, and decided to attempt to duplicate Damascus steel with quenching. He eventually developed a methodology that greatly increased the hardness of his steels.

Structure
Carbon steel consists of two components: pure iron, in the form of ferrite, and cementite or iron carbide, a compound of iron and carbon. Cementite is very hard and brittle; its hardness is about 640 by the Brinell hardness test, whereas ferrite is only 200. The amount of the carbon and the cooling regimen determine the crystalline and chemical composition of the final steel. In bulat, the slow cooling process allowed the cementite to precipitate as micro particles in between ferrite crystals and arrange in random patterns. The color of the carbide is dark while steel is grey. This mixture is what leads to the famous patterning of Damascus steel.

Cementite is essentially a ceramic, which accounts for the sharpness of the Damascus (and bulat) steel. Cementite is unstable and breaks down between 600–1100 °C into ferrite and carbon, so working the hot metal must be done very carefully.

Bibliography;
The Mystery of Damascus Blades, by John D. Verhoeven in Scientific American, No 1, pages 74–79, 2001.
History of Metallography: The Development of Ideas on the Structure of Metals before 1890. Cyril S. Smith. MIT Press, 1988.
On Damascus Steel. Leo S. Figiel. Atlantis Arts Press, 1991.
Archaeotechnology: The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades. J. D. Verhoeven, A. H. Pendray and W. E. Dauksch in
JOM: A Publication of the Minerals, Metals and Materials Society, Vol. 50, No. 9, pages 58–64; September 1998. Available at http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html "Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by ariel

Once again, it shows the importance of the forging process: minute and pretty "mechanical" dendrites of the ingot are transformed into a complex pattern...

Other way around Ariel. The dendritic pattern is the chemical structure of the ingot right out of smelting. The Persian pattern is the result of mechanical stretching and deformation of the basis dendritic pattern.

Re-reading Jeff Pringle and other smiths, a lot of crucible steel-like material will exhibit the dendritic structure. it can be deformed and made to look like what we would call wootz. Recall the "mill ball" discussions.

Here is an excerpt from Jeff Pringle's explanation in that thread.

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

My definition of ‘wootz’ is: a simple carbon steel with over ~1.3% carbon, forged in such a way as to have banded carbide structures. (Others have slightly different definitions). This takes into account that we understand how to make wootz now, so the old definition is no longer sufficient. The classic ‘wootz’ pattern (how those old swords look) can be made from almost any dendritic steel, and perhaps in some cases from regular hi-carbon barstock, but with those materials the bands are not always saturated with iron carbides.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
India is currently #4 producer of steel in the world. Iron ore is plentiful there.
Thus, I do not think that wootz production 200 years ago ceased because of the exhaustion of raw materials. Rather , the need in wootz and the skills in making it must have vanished. Of course, British industrial policies did not help either:-)

Salaams Ariel I think that is a fair comment and supported by According to Vibha Tripathi on;

http://www.ghadar.in/gjh_html/?q=con...eel-metallurgy

Quote“With industrialization and imperial designs of foreign rule a decline set in…….. The iron industry could not withstand the onslaught of the colonial forces working against its interests in a planned way. Once the blast furnaces came into existence in Britain, production started at a much cheaper rate…It could hardly compete with the cheap British pig iron being imported. ….

The laws enforcing non-felling of trees in the forest deprived the charcoal based indigenous iron industry of its very basic raw material. It made production of iron impossible.

The powerful lobby in Britain succeeded.” The colonizers succeeded in enslaving the Indian sub-continent in every sense of the word by systematically destroying the manufacturing capacity of India.

Both the authors also ascribe the decline to the reluctance of master craftsmen to document the technological secrets and to share the knowledge with others except with their favored apprentices. Hence some of the technologies could not be developed further and declined with the decline of the fortunes of the select group of families who knew the process secrets".Unquote.

see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

This shows that an ingot of crucible made in the proper manner had the necessary ingredients to forge a watered steel blade but Ann Feuerbach in "Crucible Damascus Steel: A Fascination for Almost 2,000 Years" says that not all ingots would necessarily produce a pattern.




Pattern formation in wootz damascus steel swords and blades - John Verhoeven

[Rashka Vatnik]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Ariel, thank you very much for the message from Kirill Rivkin. It is very interesting. Kirill has sent you a photo of the sword from the Hermitage? Or is he simply expressed his opinion?

Kirill Rivkin is right!

[Emanuel]

Cool thanks Eric.

Greg Obach followed this same process, producing a low-carbon rim around the high-carbon centre.

Metallurgy rocks!!!

[estcrh]

I have read several theories about how physical manipulation of the steel during the forging process such as cutting grooves in a crucible steel blade blank was the method used to create certain damascus patterns.

Pattern formation in wootz damascus steel swords and blades - John Verhoeven

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Rashka Vatnik

Kirill Rivkin is right!

Please forgive me. You might quote fragments of works Anosov, which confirm the words of Kirill Rivkin. Thank you in advance.

[estcrh]

It is unfortunate that images of the blades that Anosov made are not available to see. Ann Feuerbach did get to see one of his blades.

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

FYI, I have held the blade that Anosov made for Faraday. It had a light sham-like pattern, however, the blade was overcleaned and that may be why the pattern was faint and only visable near the handle.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All,

This ladder decoration is the highest decorative form of any blade in this sphere...It is called Kirk Narduban. I have seen some interesting descriptions of such fine work several of which are signed Assad Allah e.g. from http://armsandantiques.com Quote"The blade is forged from deep and rich kirk narduban forged wootz with a hardened dark edge and overlaid with koftgari decoration signed Assaddulah, likely apocryphal, though the quality of the wootz and the forging is an indication of a highly skilled smith".Unquote.



https://www.google.com/search?q=Kirk...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Other way around Ariel. The dendritic pattern is the chemical structure of the ingot right out of smelting. The Persian pattern is the result of mechanical stretching and deformation of the basis dendritic pattern.

That's exactly what I meant. Sorry if it sounded confusing :-(((((

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is the rendition from Wikepedia which sets down some basic principles and groundwork viz;

Quote: Bulat steel was the main type of steel used for swords in the armies of Genghis Khan, the great emperor of the Mongolian Empire. The technique used in making wootz steel has been lost for centuries and the bulat steel used today makes use of a more recently developed technique.

Bulat became popular in cannon manufacturing, until the Bessemer process was able to make the same quality steels for far less money.


Anosov.... eventually developed a methodology that greatly increased the hardness of his steels.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim,
This blurb from Wiki contains so many silly errors that I am sorely tempted not to use Wiki again even for a question whether tigers are vegetarians :-))))

Mongols of 13th century had no wootz ( bulat)

Nobody, EVER made barrels of firearms from wootz.

Anosov's bulat process did not depend on quenching. He did not increase hardness of bulat: all "bulats" ( wootz) have Rockwell C hardness in the range between 20 and 35.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

It is unfortunate that images of the blades that Anosov made are not available to see. Ann Feuerbach did get to see one of his blades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach
FYI, I have held the blade that Anosov made for Faraday. It had a light sham-like pattern, however, the blade was overcleaned and that may be why the pattern was faint and only visable near the handle.

Yet another example of Sham-like pattern.
Any Tabans or Khorasans? :-)))

[estcrh]

Another reference about creating a specific pattern by manipulating the crucible steel blade blank during forging.

[ariel]

Estcrh:
Kirk and rose are not inherent wootz patterns. They are artificially- created distortions in the underlying wootz pattern. If the blade is not wootz ( or, at the very least, mechanical damaskus) no cuttings, grindings etc will help.
I am sure you know it, but I am always surprised and annoyed when some sources list different kinds of wootz as " Sham, Khorasan, Taban, and the most prized of all, - Kirk Narduban" :-)

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Wootz is refferred as Bulat in Russian. I am not sure of definition of Bulat related to wootz, but in terms of clasical wootz - i'd not call this blade as such.

Very early in the 19th century, the term Foulad was also used for Wootz.

Gavin