Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords - Page 5

Matchlock · 28th August 2009, 03:23 PM

Thank you so much, Samuel,

For the great historical illustrations and your comments!

Best,
Michael

Samik · 2nd September 2009, 03:26 PM

Dont mention it Michael

It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we?

) thought.

A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century.
Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries.

Take a look:

Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm.../03knight.html

Best,
Samuel

Matchlock · 2nd September 2009, 04:31 PM

Thank you so much indeed, Samuel,

That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer.

Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people!

Thanks again for sharing it.

All the best,
Michael

Matchlock · 27th September 2009, 03:50 PM

A few early 16th century sources of illustration from Geiler v. Kaisersberg, The Passion of Christ, Strassburg, 1508 (the first two), and Titus Livius, Mainz, 1514.

M.

Matchlock · 27th September 2009, 04:14 PM

An illustration by Georg Pencz, Nuremberg, 1530's: The Suicide of Artemesia.

M.

Matchlock · 27th September 2009, 04:30 PM

By the same artist, dated 1535.

M.

Matchlock · 13th October 2009, 04:51 PM

A Grosses Messer, ca. 1500, and five swords of ca. 1530-40.

Matchlock · 13th October 2009, 04:59 PM

Enjoy!

cornelistromp · 14th October 2009, 06:33 PM

cornelistromp · 14th October 2009, 06:44 PM

.

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 06:36 PM

This is the best thread ever!

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:51 PM

Oh my God - thank you, Dmitry,

It's acknoledges like these that make me blush but they make all my efforts so much more worth while at the same time and keep me going.

But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track.

Best,
Michael

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track.

That, to me, sounds pretty intimidating. And with a good reason to! One day I will probably catch up, but it will take a very long time.

Regarding post no.7, looking at the first picture, reminded me of the Conyers Falchion, the precise dating of which is still up in the air, if I'm not mistaken.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 07:53 PM

Quite right, Dmitry,

I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ...

Best,
Michael

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Quite right, Dmitry,

I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ...

Best,
Michael

That could very well be. I have seen dates as early as 11th c., or as late as the 14th. What is the dating of it, according to the Royal Armouries? I couldn't find it on the web.

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 08:42 PM

Ca. 1200, plus/minus 100 years.

Grrr, thought I forgot to photograph it but on second thought I am afraid I never actually saw it; it is the property of Durham Cathedral, North East England, not of the Leeds or London museums, and probably not even on display there. I will try to do some research and let you know.

For more information on that and related items, please go

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 09:06 PM

An even madder grrr: no color photo on the web or in any of my books!

m

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 10:02 PM

I don't want to divert from the subject matter of this "best ever" thread. Perhaps the moderator can move these posts into a separate Conyers Falchion thread?
Meanwhile, here's the most detailed description of the piece, along with some photos.

Archaeologia Aeliana, or, Miscellaneous tracts relating to antiquity, Volume 15
By Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne

http://books.google.com/books?id=5e4...lchion&f=false

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 10:49 PM

Nice idea!

Still what's needed most in my opinion would be high quality and topic color pics.

At the same time I wish that members more experienced than I would do the posting on this subject. That too should be considered in my opinion when making it a thread on its own.

Good night to all you nightowls out there (and all the others),
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd October 2010, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

That, to me, sounds pretty intimidating. And with a good reason to! One day I will probably catch up, but it will take a very long time.

Regarding post no.7, looking at the first picture, reminded me of the Conyers Falchion, the precise dating of which is still up in the air, if I'm not mistaken.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Keep on struggling, buddy,

It actually took me over 250 priviledged museum visitis taking more than 270,000 photos, plus a private reference library of over 3,000 books and catalogs - apart from building up an important collection of over 60 optimum preserved and documented historical pieces from 1360-1700, and more than 300 pieces of important related accouterments - plus 30 years of hardest work all around the clock ... - no kidding !!!

Don't get frightened though but hang on and lput down your sacrifices on the altar of historical weaponry ...

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 4th October 2010, 05:38 PM

Ca. 1550, the richly fullered blade inscribed

'JOUR BIEN / I(N) TE DOMINE SPERAVI / IT NON CONFONDAR / SERVI ABSERVE'
on one sinde and
'IE(SU) PRIESTE / SI DEUS PRO NOBIS QUIS / CONTRA NOS IHS / MON MESTRE'.

Overall length 165,8 cm.

Author's photos (color), scans from Hugo Schneider/Karl Stüber, Waffen im Scgweizerischen Landesmuseum; Griffwaffen I (sadly no second volume was ever published ..)

Best,
m

Matchlock · 5th October 2010, 02:04 PM

Enjoy.

Matchlock · 5th October 2010, 02:09 PM

Extremely fine piece.
I Switzerland it was called a Schneppf.

Dmitry · 5th October 2010, 02:53 PM

Here's a very good bastard sword that just sold on eBay for $2300. Even with a broken blade I think it was more than a reasonable price for such a wonderful hilt.

Matchlock · 5th October 2010, 04:51 PM

Hi Dmitry,

As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices.

It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century.

Sorry to bust another myth,
and best,
Michael

broadaxe · 6th October 2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Dmitry,

As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices.

It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century.

Sorry to bust another myth,
and best,
Michael

Though I have smaller experience I must agree. Saw that when auction was active. The work of the hilt seems superb, but I've never seen an angular side "ring".

Matchlock · 6th October 2010, 01:02 PM

Exactly.

This side 'ring' should rather be called a stirrup.

So Dmitry, better rejoice and sing for not purchasing it. It was not even worth the ebay price but all should have been done at ca. 500 USD. As often on ebay people get carried away in bidding driven by false hopes, thinking they are making a bargain ...

Good and really early items almost never go to ebay but the specialized sales.

Best,
Michael

Pukka Bundook · 6th October 2010, 02:30 PM

Hello Michael, I must say, I have enjoyed this topic!

There is always much to be learned.
Not having anything worthwhile to add, I have kept out of it, but wanted you to know I am here...shuffling around in the background!.....

Matchlock · 6th October 2010, 02:42 PM

Hello Richard,

It's so good to at least read some lines of you after that long silence. Your brilliant queries and comments are much missed here!

Please hang on a bit more than just shuffling in the background ...

Best as always,
Michael

Samik · 6th October 2010, 04:18 PM

Many thanks gentlemen for uploading those marvelous pieces

To contribute I recently got this little gem into my hands called Régi Magyar Fegyverek by János Kalmár. It features a couple of early 16th century Hungarian swords that bear a great deal of "Landsknecht" (and most probably Italian) influence:

Sword of Hungarian monarch Louis II (the young king from Jagellionian dynasty who died at Mohacs in 1526) which looks very much like a period katzbalger:

closeup:

3 Hungarian swords from the first half of 16th century :

closeup:

Note the pallashe-like scabbard. Don't really know if these belong to the original pieces or had been a later addition...
(a bit of OT: they could in fact be an early verion of a pallashe, since such "italianate" sword-hilts were also fashionable on cavalry estocs of the period... some even among ottoman border troops! Still, to my eyes the swords seem a bit shortish for a cavalry weapon...)

Cheers,
Samuel

2nd September 2009, 03:26 PM	#122
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	early katzbalger Dont mention it Michael It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we? ) thought. A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century. Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries. Take a look: Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm.../03knight.html Best, Samuel

27th September 2009, 03:50 PM	#124
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A few early 16th century sources of illustration from Geiler v. Kaisersberg, The Passion of Christ, Strassburg, 1508 (the first two), and Titus Livius, Mainz, 1514. M. Attached Images

27th September 2009, 04:14 PM	#125
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An illustration by Georg Pencz, Nuremberg, 1530's: The Suicide of Artemesia. M. Attached Images

27th September 2009, 04:30 PM	#126
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	By the same artist, dated 1535. M. Attached Images

13th October 2009, 04:51 PM	#127
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Early 16th century Landsknecht swords in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris A Grosses Messer, ca. 1500, and five swords of ca. 1530-40. Attached Images

28th August 2009, 03:23 PM	#121
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Samuel, For the great historical illustrations and your comments! Best, Michael

2nd September 2009, 04:31 PM	#123
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much indeed, Samuel, That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer. Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people! Thanks again for sharing it. All the best, Michael

13th October 2009, 04:59 PM	#128
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	16th century hand-and-a-half and two hand swords, Paris, Musée de l'Armée Enjoy! Attached Images

14th October 2009, 06:33 PM	#129
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th October 2009 at 06:45 PM.

14th October 2009, 06:44 PM	#130
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	. Attached Images

30th September 2010, 06:36 PM	#131
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	This is the best thread ever!

30th September 2010, 06:51 PM	#132
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Oh my God - thank you, Dmitry, It's acknoledges like these that make me blush but they make all my efforts so much more worth while at the same time and keep me going. But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track. Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 07:53 PM	#134
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Quite right, Dmitry, I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ... Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 08:42 PM	#136
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Conyer's Falchion Ca. 1200, plus/minus 100 years. Grrr, thought I forgot to photograph it but on second thought I am afraid I never actually saw it; it is the property of Durham Cathedral, North East England, not of the Leeds or London museums, and probably not even on display there. I will try to do some research and let you know. For more information on that and related items, please go http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 30th September 2010 at 08:59 PM.

30th September 2010, 09:06 PM	#137
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An even madder grrr: no color photo on the web or in any of my books! m

30th September 2010, 10:02 PM	#138
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I don't want to divert from the subject matter of this "best ever" thread. Perhaps the moderator can move these posts into a separate Conyers Falchion thread? Meanwhile, here's the most detailed description of the piece, along with some photos. Archaeologia Aeliana, or, Miscellaneous tracts relating to antiquity, Volume 15 By Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne http://books.google.com/books?id=5e4...lchion&f=false

30th September 2010, 10:49 PM	#139
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Nice idea! Still what's needed most in my opinion would be high quality and topic color pics. At the same time I wish that members more experienced than I would do the posting on this subject. That too should be considered in my opinion when making it a thread on its own. Good night to all you nightowls out there (and all the others), Michael

4th October 2010, 05:38 PM	#141
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Fine Early 16th C. Two Handed Swords in The Zurich Museum Ca. 1550, the richly fullered blade inscribed 'JOUR BIEN / I(N) TE DOMINE SPERAVI / IT NON CONFONDAR / SERVI ABSERVE' on one sinde and 'IE(SU) PRIESTE / SI DEUS PRO NOBIS QUIS / CONTRA NOS IHS / MON MESTRE'. Overall length 165,8 cm. Author's photos (color), scans from Hugo Schneider/Karl Stüber, Waffen im Scgweizerischen Landesmuseum; Griffwaffen I (sadly no second volume was ever published ..) Best, m Attached Images

5th October 2010, 02:04 PM	#142
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More early 16th century swords in Zurich Enjoy. Attached Images

5th October 2010, 02:09 PM	#143
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Schweizer Säbel by Christoph Stantler I., ca. 1530-35, in Zurich Extremely fine piece. I Switzerland it was called a Schneppf. Attached Images

5th October 2010, 02:53 PM	#144
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's a very good bastard sword that just sold on eBay for $2300. Even with a broken blade I think it was more than a reasonable price for such a wonderful hilt. Attached Images

5th October 2010, 04:51 PM	#145
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Dmitry, As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices. It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century. Sorry to bust another myth, and best, Michael

6th October 2010, 01:02 PM	#147
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly. This side 'ring' should rather be called a stirrup. So Dmitry, better rejoice and sing for not purchasing it. It was not even worth the ebay price but all should have been done at ca. 500 USD. As often on ebay people get carried away in bidding driven by false hopes, thinking they are making a bargain ... Good and really early items almost never go to ebay but the specialized sales. Best, Michael

6th October 2010, 02:30 PM	#148
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Michael, I must say, I have enjoyed this topic! There is always much to be learned. Not having anything worthwhile to add, I have kept out of it, but wanted you to know I am here...shuffling around in the background!.....

6th October 2010, 02:42 PM	#149
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello Richard, It's so good to at least read some lines of you after that long silence. Your brilliant queries and comments are much missed here! Please hang on a bit more than just shuffling in the background ... Best as always, Michael

6th October 2010, 04:18 PM	#150
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Landsknecht related swords from The historical kingdom of Hungary Many thanks gentlemen for uploading those marvelous pieces To contribute I recently got this little gem into my hands called Régi Magyar Fegyverek by János Kalmár. It features a couple of early 16th century Hungarian swords that bear a great deal of "Landsknecht" (and most probably Italian) influence: Sword of Hungarian monarch Louis II (the young king from Jagellionian dynasty who died at Mohacs in 1526) which looks very much like a period katzbalger: closeup: 3 Hungarian swords from the first half of 16th century : closeup: Note the pallashe-like scabbard. Don't really know if these belong to the original pieces or had been a later addition... (a bit of OT: they could in fact be an early verion of a pallashe, since such "italianate" sword-hilts were also fashionable on cavalry estocs of the period... some even among ottoman border troops! Still, to my eyes the swords seem a bit shortish for a cavalry weapon...) Cheers, Samuel