Help with Identification please - Page 5

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:18 AM

As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt.

Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why.

Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:27 AM

Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:52 AM

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

David · 5th October 2010, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

Frankly Alan, while i quite understand your position here, many of us do not personally have your experience or access to all the "ideas and stories" in regards to this question. Ideas and stories can be more than a foundation for congenial conversation. They can sometimes feed hypothesis or spark theories and can lead us on to further discovery. Then sometimes they just lead us only to dead ends. But i see no reason to quash discussion here simply because the answers might remain unsubstantiated or because you have already heard all the stories. My only disclaimer here is that when we speak from a place of folklore it cannot be held up as absolute fact. It is what it is and must be examined and valued as such. But i think at this point we are probably all aware that there are many aspects of the keris that will always remain somewhat unsubstantiated to some extent.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 05:43 AM

David, I am not attempting to quash discussion.

If there is a group consensus that the ideas, stories and unsubstantiated hypotheses are a valuable contribution to keris knowledge, then by all means let those who consider this to be so bring forth those ideas and stories.

Personally I feel that there are already far too many fairy stories about the keris floating around. We can call these fairy stories folk tales, or myths, or legends but they do not bring us any closer to an answer to Cedric's question. Had his question been phrased differently, we may have had room to move and we could dragged out all the quaint and interesting yarns we've heard and entertained one another with them, but that was not what Cedric asked for:-

"--- the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?"

and then following my prompt, he specified a time and place.

An opinion is a view or judgement that one has formed about something.

It can be an informed opinion, in which case we should be able to substantiate it, or it can be an uninformed opinion, when we are unable to substantiate it.

I have little time for unsubstantiated opinion. I do have several "good ideas" in relation to the form and cultural significance of keris hilts, but at present I cannot produce support for these "good ideas" so they will remain unstated. If I ever do state them, they will be stated with some semblance of logical supporting evidence.

But that's only me, if others wish to present unsubstantiated opinion that is always their prerogative.

In the terms of Cedric's question, I am unable to present him with an opinion which I can support.

I repeat:-

I am not attempting to quash discussion.

In fact I have already provided a couple of questions which , in light of past experience, should generate discussion. Who knows, we might even get a replay of the beautiful Durga hilt discussions.

asomotif · 5th October 2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush

Interesting choice to take your wifes toothbrush.
Did she get angry ?

Thanks for posting your pictures of this process. Always nive to see how others proceed. And interesting to see a simple thread about a madura bring-back keris loosing itself in deep extensive discussions. (not disrespect intended)

Small blades i often just put in the kitchen in a large beerglass.
Other larger items I place outside of the house.

Good luck with the project.

As for the relation of the keris blade and handle.
I once read a "story" that the hilt should not be removed to far from the blade and/or that the blade should not be without a handle too long.
Those stories belong in the unsubstantiated category as far as I am concerned.
It is out of respect that I will not leave a blade without "dress"too long. but not out of fear or believe.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 01:15 PM

Between 1975 and about the year 2000, I was told by three separate, very knowledgeable and respected keris people living in Central Jawa that as a man is to a woman, so is the warangka to the wilahan, and that as a hat is to a man, so is the jejeran to the wilahan. The hat --- sorry, jejeran --- simply completes the dress.

That's a nice little story to help get things going.

Last quarter of the 20th century. Central Jawa --- one person in Jogja in 1975, the other two in Solo, a little later.

Do we really accept this as the way in which things were seen in Jawa during the Majapahit era? I rather think not. My feeling is that somewhere along the way, something sort of got misplaced.

If we want stories, we now have two, one from Willem, one from me.

Maybe there are some more interesting little stories out there?

Or just maybe somebody has been able to get back into the old literature and the records from pre-Demak a little further than I have. Or maybe somebody has been able to unearth some Balinese beliefs. Or maybe somebody has surveyed the overarching commonalities of cultural foundations in Maritime SE Asia, and by logical analysis provide us with a supportable hypothesis.

Whatever maybe out there let's bring it out and let it see daylight. Let's see what we can add to true knowledge in this respect.

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

imas560 · 8th October 2010, 02:03 AM

Hello asomotif,
she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 04:47 AM

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

David · 8th October 2010, 05:52 AM

I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 06:08 AM

Yes David, agreed.

A completely different question to that raised by Cedric.

Here is Cedric's original question:-

"---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---"

which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:-

"---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin.
I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts.
Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---"

The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:-

When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt?

If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

David · 8th October 2010, 01:30 PM

Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

Alan,

first of all I have to note that David is correct by his assumption that I used the term "so called gana hilts" intentional. And that I write "in many books" have been a little bit hastily, sorry.
I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

Thank you David!

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 11:12 PM

Thanks David, and thank you Detlef for your clarification.

Martin was a fine gentleman --- at least in my estimation --- and a very likable an intelligent person, but he did have a very active imagination.

In fact, I do not know of any formal name for these naturally occurring forms that are used as keris hilts. Admittedly, I've never seen many of them in Jawa, in fact, I've never seen many of them, period.

It may be that in the current era collector cliques there is some sort of accepted name for this type of hilt, but what I'd like to know is if there is a formal name that goes back a few years, say prior to WWII. I'll see if I can make some enquiries.

David · 8th October 2010, 11:20 PM

Alan, you say that you haven't seen many of these so-called "gana" hilts. Would you say that of the ones you have seen that there are a few with some age to them, or are the hilts themselves a fairly recent phenomenon?

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2010, 01:49 AM

The very few hilts I have seen like this have all been old, with good patina. I've never seen a recent one.

Jean · 10th October 2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2010, 11:08 AM

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Jean · 10th October 2010, 11:47 AM

Hello Alan,
Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide).
Best regards
Jean

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

guwaya · 10th October 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Hello A. G. Maisey, Hello to the Forum:

Here the citate from:
J.G.Huyse:, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1917-18, 2, p. 33:

"................... door Dr. Hazeu beschreven als een menschelijk wezen "men zou zeggen een pas geboren kindje n hurkende houding, met narr boven bijna pits toeloopend hoofd, de gebogen armen stijf onder de kin en onnatuurlijk lange voeten en teenen. In vorm en houding gelijkt het sterk op enkele van die steenen 'leloehoer-beelden", die men hier en daar in adgelegen hoeken van West-Java aantreft, van 't zgn. Padjadjaran-type. De sporen van boreh, waarmee 't zeker-vaak besmeerd is, zijn nog zichtbaar. Sommigen beweren, dat zulke beeldjes ook wel 'gana-gana' heten. Volgens anderen is er eigenlijk verschil tusschen oendooek en 'gana'; een oendoek zou uitsluitend een zeepaardje, een 'gana' daarentegen een mensch of kind, 'kebo', 'sapi' of kip voorstellingen. ........................... ."

I hope this is of service for all and this is a wonderfull sample for my former promotion for old or older literature. As I must recognize - and this I declare without any aim to step on somebodies feet - it seems, that still most present so-called 'keris'-lovers read this critism but are still focused on to the popular picture books - naturally, its fare more compfortable.

Regards,
guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2010, 01:11 PM

Thank you Guwaya.

Here is what google translator makes of this:-

by Dr.. Hazeu described as a human being "one would say a newborn baby n squatting position, with jesters over almost ring-shaped head, the curved arms tight under the chin and unnaturally long feet and toes. In form and attitude resembles strongly to some of the stones 'leloehoer images, which here and there in the corner of West Java adgelegen encounter, van' t called Padjadjaran type. The traces of boreh, which it certainly is-often smeared, are still visible. Some claim that such figurines called "gana-gana 'called. Others argue oendooek difference between fact and 'gana', one would only oendoek a seahorse, a 'gana' hand man or a child, 'Kebo', 'sapi' performances or chicken. .

I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage. It seems that what is reported here is rather confusing. Can you clarify and substantiate?

Thanks.

I agree completely that older literature does contain much valuable information, however some of us do not have access to sources in the European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc.

guwaya · 10th October 2010, 02:29 PM

[/QUOTE]

"I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage ...... "

I agree completely that there is no real evidence that the term 'gana' is a legitime usage and under the the scholary view - I for myself - in scientific essays would prefer to describe such hilts as "natural grown hilts in abstract forms associated with .......". For myself I never heard the term 'gana' used by Javanese persons. Anyway, the articel from Huyser shows, that the term 'gana' was known in1917/1918.

"...... European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc."

Naturally many people cannot speek or read a lot of languages but this literature exsists and if somebody wants to research seriously he has to find a way to arrange it, otherwise there will be a great lack in reseaches - just think about the articles and books written in Javanese or Indonesian. The sources are possible to get as - I can order copies in the Australia library and other states have the same system.

Nobody can expect that foreign researchers who are working deep and seriously translate their results into English - too many faults might happen in the translation which could leed to misunderstandings not wanted by the writer. There is a lot of old literature - important literature - about ethnographic studies in generell written in Dutch, German, French, Portugiese and other languages due to the fact that these countries have a long history. Literary research - a difficult and time eating matter, a full time job. So, the people prefer to take the easy literature (unfortunately uncritically) and I am nearly sure that in 20 years the serious informations among collectors are lost - sadly lost.

Thank you

Sajen · 10th October 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

thank you for clarification. By Tammens Vol. 3 and in the Ensiklopedi Keris I can't find a direction to Gana hilts at a quick look.

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 10th October 2010, 07:36 PM

I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35.
What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana.

I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation:
"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct.

So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913.

So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research!

Regards,

Detlef

Henk · 10th October 2010, 07:55 PM

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

Sajen · 10th October 2010, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

Hello Henk,

thank you!

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2010, 10:59 PM

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Detlef, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:-

"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

If I run the relevant words through an online translator I get:-

"Dr. Groneman mentions in his study of the keris that is in the Yogya Kraton handles carried in human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots. at No. 25, which show the human form. "

I think that the online translator comes fairly close in sense to your translation, so we can probably accept that you have translated the sense of the passage adequately.

However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:-

" In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form."

What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman.

In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:-

"--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---"

and

"--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---"

However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name.

I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation.

This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time.

I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest.

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2010, 11:33 PM

Thank you for your input to this discussion, Guwaya.

The word "gana" does occur in Modern Javanese , so it is not a term invented by bules, but the question is this:- is it correctly applied to this naturally occurring root-form hilt?

In light of the post I have just now made, I am currently in some doubt that it is correctly applied.

If we accept the Richardus/Rogers translation, obviously the current belief that it applies to the naturally occurring root-form hilt is just plain wrong.

At the moment it looks to me like Mr. Huyser made an error that has been repeated ever since.

The problem of information contained in varying languages is certainly a real one, and it is one of the functions of academia to co-relate these varying sources and make them intelligible to the world community. This is one of the reasons for a community of academics to exist, and it justifies the expenditure of the broader community on their upkeep.

What academics produce is then able to be examined by those of us who are not academics, and when this academically produced work is examined by people from the broader community, who come from a variety of disciplines, it is only natural that questions will be asked that may not have occurred to the original translator, or reporter.

Academics by nature are researchers, and where adequate funds are available, specialist academics who are specialist researchers , can be employed. Where specialist researchers cannot be employed, then the academic community as a whole becomes the researcher for the general community, as a whole. The results of research can then be subjected to analysis.

I am not an academic, and have never had the slightest desire to be, nor to become one. My own discipline is audit, and that involves the very close examination of data and the application of logical examination and analysis to that data. This process almost invariably results in the formation of questions.

This is what I do. I ask questions. It is not my job to construct the answers, I construct the questions, and then I put those questions to specialists in the various fields involved in the enquiry.

If the right question is asked, the right answer will be provided, if it currently exists.

When I apply myself to matters to do with the keris, I adopt the same approach. It is difficult for me to approach the matter in any other way, as this is simply the application of my professional skills to a different field.

10th October 2010, 07:36 PM	#146
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,765	I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35. What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana. I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven." I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation: "Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure." This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct. So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913. So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

10th October 2010, 10:59 PM	#149
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input. Detlef, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:- "Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure." If I run the relevant words through an online translator I get:- "Dr. Groneman mentions in his study of the keris that is in the Yogya Kraton handles carried in human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots. at No. 25, which show the human form. " I think that the online translator comes fairly close in sense to your translation, so we can probably accept that you have translated the sense of the passage adequately. However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:- " In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman. In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:- "--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---" and "--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---" However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name. I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation. This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time. I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 11th October 2010 at 12:02 AM. Reason: correction of error

5th October 2010, 02:18 AM	#121
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt. Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why. Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

5th October 2010, 02:27 AM	#122
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,765	Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

5th October 2010, 02:52 AM	#123
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thanks Detlef. In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha). In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military. In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas). See how confusing these things can become?

5th October 2010, 05:43 AM	#125
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	David, I am not attempting to quash discussion. If there is a group consensus that the ideas, stories and unsubstantiated hypotheses are a valuable contribution to keris knowledge, then by all means let those who consider this to be so bring forth those ideas and stories. Personally I feel that there are already far too many fairy stories about the keris floating around. We can call these fairy stories folk tales, or myths, or legends but they do not bring us any closer to an answer to Cedric's question. Had his question been phrased differently, we may have had room to move and we could dragged out all the quaint and interesting yarns we've heard and entertained one another with them, but that was not what Cedric asked for:- "--- the relation between the handle and the blade. --- Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?" and then following my prompt, he specified a time and place. An opinion is a view or judgement that one has formed about something. It can be an informed opinion, in which case we should be able to substantiate it, or it can be an uninformed opinion, when we are unable to substantiate it. I have little time for unsubstantiated opinion. I do have several "good ideas" in relation to the form and cultural significance of keris hilts, but at present I cannot produce support for these "good ideas" so they will remain unstated. If I ever do state them, they will be stated with some semblance of logical supporting evidence. But that's only me, if others wish to present unsubstantiated opinion that is always their prerogative. In the terms of Cedric's question, I am unable to present him with an opinion which I can support. I repeat:- I am not attempting to quash discussion. In fact I have already provided a couple of questions which , in light of past experience, should generate discussion. Who knows, we might even get a replay of the beautiful Durga hilt discussions.

5th October 2010, 01:15 PM	#127
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Between 1975 and about the year 2000, I was told by three separate, very knowledgeable and respected keris people living in Central Jawa that as a man is to a woman, so is the warangka to the wilahan, and that as a hat is to a man, so is the jejeran to the wilahan. The hat --- sorry, jejeran --- simply completes the dress. That's a nice little story to help get things going. Last quarter of the 20th century. Central Jawa --- one person in Jogja in 1975, the other two in Solo, a little later. Do we really accept this as the way in which things were seen in Jawa during the Majapahit era? I rather think not. My feeling is that somewhere along the way, something sort of got misplaced. If we want stories, we now have two, one from Willem, one from me. Maybe there are some more interesting little stories out there? Or just maybe somebody has been able to get back into the old literature and the records from pre-Demak a little further than I have. Or maybe somebody has been able to unearth some Balinese beliefs. Or maybe somebody has surveyed the overarching commonalities of cultural foundations in Maritime SE Asia, and by logical analysis provide us with a supportable hypothesis. Whatever maybe out there let's bring it out and let it see daylight. Let's see what we can add to true knowledge in this respect.

8th October 2010, 02:03 AM	#129
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello asomotif, she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

8th October 2010, 04:47 AM	#130
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thanks for your response Detlef. Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it. However, when was this term first used for these hilts? The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form? I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print. Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication? My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

8th October 2010, 05:52 AM	#131
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

8th October 2010, 06:08 AM	#132
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Yes David, agreed. A completely different question to that raised by Cedric. Here is Cedric's original question:- "---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. --- Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---" which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:- "---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin. I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts. Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---" The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:- When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt? If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

8th October 2010, 01:30 PM	#133
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

8th October 2010, 11:12 PM	#136
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thanks David, and thank you Detlef for your clarification. Martin was a fine gentleman --- at least in my estimation --- and a very likable an intelligent person, but he did have a very active imagination. In fact, I do not know of any formal name for these naturally occurring forms that are used as keris hilts. Admittedly, I've never seen many of them in Jawa, in fact, I've never seen many of them, period. It may be that in the current era collector cliques there is some sort of accepted name for this type of hilt, but what I'd like to know is if there is a formal name that goes back a few years, say prior to WWII. I'll see if I can make some enquiries.

8th October 2010, 11:20 PM	#137
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Alan, you say that you haven't seen many of these so-called "gana" hilts. Would you say that of the ones you have seen that there are a few with some age to them, or are the hilts themselves a fairly recent phenomenon?

9th October 2010, 01:49 AM	#138
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	The very few hilts I have seen like this have all been old, with good patina. I've never seen a recent one.

10th October 2010, 11:08 AM	#140
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thanks for your input Jean. I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris". As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity. He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source? Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

10th October 2010, 11:47 AM	#141
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide). Best regards Jean [QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean. I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris". As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

10th October 2010, 01:11 PM	#143
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thank you Guwaya. Here is what google translator makes of this:- by Dr.. Hazeu described as a human being "one would say a newborn baby n squatting position, with jesters over almost ring-shaped head, the curved arms tight under the chin and unnaturally long feet and toes. In form and attitude resembles strongly to some of the stones 'leloehoer images, which here and there in the corner of West Java adgelegen encounter, van' t called Padjadjaran type. The traces of boreh, which it certainly is-often smeared, are still visible. Some claim that such figurines called "gana-gana 'called. Others argue oendooek difference between fact and 'gana', one would only oendoek a seahorse, a 'gana' hand man or a child, 'Kebo', 'sapi' performances or chicken. . I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage. It seems that what is reported here is rather confusing. Can you clarify and substantiate? Thanks. I agree completely that older literature does contain much valuable information, however some of us do not have access to sources in the European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc.

10th October 2010, 02:29 PM	#144
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	[/QUOTE] "I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage ...... " I agree completely that there is no real evidence that the term 'gana' is a legitime usage and under the the scholary view - I for myself - in scientific essays would prefer to describe such hilts as "natural grown hilts in abstract forms associated with .......". For myself I never heard the term 'gana' used by Javanese persons. Anyway, the articel from Huyser shows, that the term 'gana' was known in1917/1918. "...... European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc." Naturally many people cannot speek or read a lot of languages but this literature exsists and if somebody wants to research seriously he has to find a way to arrange it, otherwise there will be a great lack in reseaches - just think about the articles and books written in Javanese or Indonesian. The sources are possible to get as - I can order copies in the Australia library and other states have the same system. Nobody can expect that foreign researchers who are working deep and seriously translate their results into English - too many faults might happen in the translation which could leed to misunderstandings not wanted by the writer. There is a lot of old literature - important literature - about ethnographic studies in generell written in Dutch, German, French, Portugiese and other languages due to the fact that these countries have a long history. Literary research - a difficult and time eating matter, a full time job. So, the people prefer to take the easy literature (unfortunately uncritically) and I am nearly sure that in 20 years the serious informations among collectors are lost - sadly lost. Thank you

10th October 2010, 07:55 PM	#147
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef, A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

10th October 2010, 11:33 PM	#150
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Thank you for your input to this discussion, Guwaya. The word "gana" does occur in Modern Javanese , so it is not a term invented by bules, but the question is this:- is it correctly applied to this naturally occurring root-form hilt? In light of the post I have just now made, I am currently in some doubt that it is correctly applied. If we accept the Richardus/Rogers translation, obviously the current belief that it applies to the naturally occurring root-form hilt is just plain wrong. At the moment it looks to me like Mr. Huyser made an error that has been repeated ever since. The problem of information contained in varying languages is certainly a real one, and it is one of the functions of academia to co-relate these varying sources and make them intelligible to the world community. This is one of the reasons for a community of academics to exist, and it justifies the expenditure of the broader community on their upkeep. What academics produce is then able to be examined by those of us who are not academics, and when this academically produced work is examined by people from the broader community, who come from a variety of disciplines, it is only natural that questions will be asked that may not have occurred to the original translator, or reporter. Academics by nature are researchers, and where adequate funds are available, specialist academics who are specialist researchers , can be employed. Where specialist researchers cannot be employed, then the academic community as a whole becomes the researcher for the general community, as a whole. The results of research can then be subjected to analysis. I am not an academic, and have never had the slightest desire to be, nor to become one. My own discipline is audit, and that involves the very close examination of data and the application of logical examination and analysis to that data. This process almost invariably results in the formation of questions. This is what I do. I ask questions. It is not my job to construct the answers, I construct the questions, and then I put those questions to specialists in the various fields involved in the enquiry. If the right question is asked, the right answer will be provided, if it currently exists. When I apply myself to matters to do with the keris, I adopt the same approach. It is difficult for me to approach the matter in any other way, as this is simply the application of my professional skills to a different field.